This guy is Mormon?

[GVC]

Insofar as clarifying ambiguous/misleading statements can be counted as "correcting", the following stand out:

Scriptures are the only place I get church doctrine from.

As has been noted, official statements by church leaders are considered doctrine by the LDS church.

-To clarify a male does not have need the priesthood to reach heaven.

...BUT they do need the priesthood to receive temple ordinances and attain the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I will probably never understand because I have never understood, and upon learning more of the church's history on this matter it left such a bad taste in my mouth I quickly gave up on my LDS apologism. So I think it's fair to say I will probably never understand.

And for a creator that is omnipotent and omniscient, why change anything you do or think? What is right and what isn't can't change and there would be no incentive to change it. Whether that's instituting a ban on bestowing the priesthood based purely on racial criteria, or whether that's reversing it.

I am an atheist if that wasn't already known. May more negative rep flow my way.

Don't expect neg rep from me because you are an atheist, I was just curious.

As to The Creator changing things, I believe His goal is to help us return to live with him. Just as a teacher will adjust how they teach depending on the class, I believe God does the same with us. A teacher is less effective if they cannot adjust methods, approaches, and sometimes teach faster or slower depending on the students. This is the best way I can think of as an example of why people at different times are given different instruction. Make sense, or do I have to expound on my idea?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Don't expect neg rep from me because you are an atheist, I was just curious.

As to The Creator changing things, I believe His goal is to help us return to live with him. Just as a teacher will adjust how they teach depending on the class, I believe God does the same with us. A teacher is less effective if they cannot adjust methods, approaches, and sometimes teach faster or slower depending on the students. This is the best way I can think of as an example of why people at different times are given different instruction. Make sense, or do I have to expound on my idea?

So it was cool to hate black people 100 years ago, but now since the world has gotten more PC it isn't cool?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Insofar as clarifying ambiguous/misleading statements can be counted as "correcting", the following stand out:

As has been noted, official statements by church leaders are considered doctrine by the LDS church.

...BUT they do need the priesthood to receive temple ordinances and attain the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

Church doctrine can and should come from current leaders, but the most important part is seeking and getting the Lord's verification that what they said is right on your own, and receiving your own witness. If you do not have your own witness, or testimony of any law, doctrine, or practice then you have more work to do. You cannot truly live a law or follow doctrine if you don't truly know or understand it for yourself.

Yes a male will need the priesthood to attain the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom whether in this life, or accept a proxy ordinance done for you after you have died. It is still your choice to accept it either way, but skin color in this life will not limit what glory or what Kingdom you receive... that will be between you and the Lord.

This is just my understanding and opinion and I am in no way claiming to be a spokesperson for church doctrine.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

So it was cool to hate black people 100 years ago, but now since the world has gotten more PC it isn't cool?

You are jumping to conclusions. Who said anything about hate?
Law 1 is to Love God, Law 2 is to Love your neighbor as yourself.

I don't claim to understand fully why black people had to wait to receive the priesthood.
My best guess is that the people, and yes I mean white church members, were not ready.
Even my parents generation still have/had racist tendencies... that may have caused more issues and more difficult problems at the time.
That is just a thought from me that has no foundation, but is just floating around in my head.

I don't think it has anything to do with PC... PC is garbage and only surface level.
True love for other people is much better, and I qualify that by saying Love for people and not necessarily what they do.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

You are jumping to conclusions. Who said anything about hate?
Law 1 is to Love God, Law 2 is to Love your neighbor as yourself.

I don't claim to understand fully why black people had to wait to receive the priesthood.
My best guess is that the people, and yes I mean white church members, were not ready.
Even my parents generation still have/had racist tendencies... that may have caused more issues and more difficult problems at the time.
That is just a thought from me that has no foundation, but is just floating around in my head.

I don't think it has anything to do with PC... PC is garbage and only surface level.
True love for other people is much better, and I qualify that by saying Love for people and not necessarily what they do.

Yes, but for Mormonism to become a respected religion, accepting black people was a necessity. Could you imagine the negative publicity Mormonism would have if it still viewed blacks as 2nd class citizens? Not saying that is the reason it happened, but this is probably the reason it happened.

 

[Beantown]

Insofar as clarifying ambiguous/misleading statements can be counted as "correcting", the following stand out:

As has been noted, official statements by church leaders are considered doctrine by the LDS church.

...BUT they do need the priesthood to receive temple ordinances and attain the highest glory in the Celestial Kingdom.

-'Official statements" from the church all have significant scripture reference to them. If the church came out with something that wasn't scriptural based then I wouldn't take it as doctrine. I just didn't think I had to explain that to you like a 12 year old.

-Also you don't need the priesthood to receive temple ordinances. Women receive the same ordinances as men and they don't have the priesthood.


Why are you correcting me if I had to correct you in your attempt to correct me?

 

[babe]

I've read books on the LDS/denial over the years, and have been in a position to know more than the official statements. My grandfather, as a mission president in South Africa carried on some correspondence with 50E South Temple. A lot of folks don't give credit to the LDS for their anti-slavery doctrine which required southern slaveholders to free their slaves as a condition of their baptism. The fact is Joseph Smith had dear friends who took refuge in his home, and carried no personal prejudice. He took the position, while running for President, that the government should purchase all the slaves and set them at liberty. A large number of blacks, as free men, joined the church when their former masters set them free while seeking baptism. Some of these were in the first Mormon wagons to enter Salt Lake Valley.

The LDS have always held that blacks are the children of the same Father in Heaven, and would on conditions of personal faithfulness gain all the blessings anyone else can obtain in the final judgment. The Jews/Israelites believed they were a chosen race as heir of Abraham. They believed only the tribe of Levi was entitled to hold the "Levitical Priesthood", and that other roles were reserved for some on the basis of promises to their "fathers". The LDS have always believed in doing ordinance work for all people on the understanding that these endowments/ordinances would be valid if anyone ever chooses to accept them in subsequent worlds.

Jesus himself told a parable about the Master who hired some workers in the early morning, agreeing to pay them a penny for their labors for the day. Then the Master hired others at noon, for the same pay. And again hired others at the last hour, agreeing as well to pay them the same pay. The folks who had the job all day long, bearing the burdens in the heat of the day, started complaining about being unequally treated. But the Master rebuked them, and said it was his own business and he had lived up to his promise with them.

I think it is an error to look at "priesthood" as a personal right. If it has any meaning it comes from God, and is a charge to serve God, and not to be a honcho or someone "superior". That people don't understand that very well is just because we are not very good somehow, sometimes.

 

[LogGrad98]

I am not prejudiced; I hate everyone equally.







Yeah it's late and I should be asleep. Maybe I am.

 

[babe]

I am not prejudiced; I hate everyone equally.







Yeah it's late and I should be asleep. Maybe I am.

Yeah, I wrote my bit and promptly slept the "Sleep of the Just", relying on Lord Jesus to save me from my vile sins and shortcomings, including my pompous self-conceit that I have figured out how to snake a few PC professions through the night and fog to justify myself. Jesus probably laughs at me, but saves me anyway. As well as other less-well-adorned sinners.

 

[babe]

Actually, the phenomena of the Jabari Parkers might be about set to become another Mormon athletic coup like all the Polynesian football players BYU gets from it's members in the Pacific. A lot of LDS families have adopted some black kids. It's quite a going phenomena that black baptist girls are choosing not to abort, but put the kid up for adoption, and every week some are flown into Salt Lake to be near the adoptive parents, who pay for the delivery.

 

[GVC]

-'Official statements" from the church all have significant scripture reference to them. If the church came out with something that wasn't scriptural based then I wouldn't take it as doctrine. I just didn't think I had to explain that to you like a 12 year old.

Then you'd be an apostate. Insulting me doesn't change that.

I'm curious, do you consider the Doctrine and Covenants "scripture"?

And remember, I was clarifying your ambiguous statement about scripture, as clearly stated in previous posts.

-Also you don't need the priesthood to receive temple ordinances. Women receive the same ordinances as men and they don't have the priesthood.

We were talking about men. I guess I gave you far too much credit. You're a complete ****ing moron.

Why are you correcting me if I had to correct you in your attempt to correct me?

You didn't have to. Your corrections make your ignorance more transparent.

 

[Beantown]

Then you'd be an apostate.

I'm curious, do you consider the Doctrine and Covenants "scripture"?
.

Every policy the church has is backed up very strongly by scripture. Nothing they do or say is a stray from that. So yes if the church came out and said we are becoming a terrorist organization I wouldn't be Mormon. I don't follow blindly, and the church doesn't want its members to either.

Is D&C scripture?....hold on let me check my scriptures..........yep their in there....

You can cross reference the BOM, Bible, D & C .....etc.....nothing said in each individual book is not backed up by a statement in another.

 

[LogGrad98]

*they're

 

[Beantown]

I prefer non-theist, and no, I don't believe the bible to be anything more than tribal bull-****.

So do you just ignore all the historical evidence of the Bible?....Even if your not a believer you can't deny that a lot of the biblical events actually happened.

 

[cowhide]

The point is people can't seem to separate individuals from the church. The biggest reason people go inactive is individuals actions or words. Not the church. The same for people outside the church. When a Mormon does something indivually offensive they blame the church.

So are you saying the church is perfect and the people are not but who makes up the church? Isn't it the people?

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Actually, the phenomena of the Jabari Parkers might be about set to become another Mormon athletic coup like all the Polynesian football players BYU gets from it's members in the Pacific. A lot of LDS families have adopted some black kids. It's quite a going phenomena that black baptist girls are choosing not to abort, but put the kid up for adoption, and every week some are flown into Salt Lake to be near the adoptive parents, who pay for the delivery.

I guess that's one way for BYU to finally get some athletes in that defensive backfield......

 

[Scat]

I would have guessed that to be the doctrine now, but that was not the doctrine pre-1978 FWIW.

That's not true. They have been doing temple work for decades which includes baptisms and endowments for the dead.

 

[GVC]

That's not true. They have been doing temple work for decades which includes baptisms and endowments for the dead.

I'm pretty sure the doctrine was that African-Americans were barred from the priesthood both during life and after death pre-1978. As such, they (male African-Americans) could not receive an endowment or be married eternally after death.

 

[colton]

I'm pretty sure the doctrine was that African-Americans were barred from the priesthood both during life and after death pre-1978. As such, they (male African-Americans) could not receive an endowment or be married eternally after death.

I researched this a number of years back. If I recall correctly, the pre-1978 policy was that temple work would not be done for blacks (can't say "African-Americans" because that rules out Africans themselves), as GVC said. However, church leaders also taught that the day would come when this would change, although most believed this would not happen until the Millennium.