Thoughts on Trading Bogdanvic

[NAOS]

You can read what I thought the Hart trade could look like. You asked the question already, I assumed you wanted the answer and gave it. But I guess you preferred to make up your own answer.

If you’ve ever proposed an actual trade, with all the moving pieces, I’m gonna need a link.

 

[NAOS]

One of my complaints with Quin has been being rigid on closing with Bogey instead of Ingles. He rarely did that last year so it surprised me when I fled got the call the other night. Some may call that sour soup but I think Ingles is damn good and as a numbers guy it’s not really close.

Gay provides us another option like Bogey if we need another scorer/shooter. Clarkson should also be seen as an option because it’s not like Bogey provides much with his size. I’m not saying Bogey should never finish games, but Ingles should be the default and it should be an open decision night to night.

As far as Bogey being overpaid, I don’t think he necessarily is either. He would get paid if he was on the open market. I do think his reputation exceeds his value, however, but that reputation holds true in a trade discussion.

I think Roco is seen in a similar light around the league and he got two firsts in a trade. I think Bogey might be able to yield the same if there’s buyer. I keep looking at NOP as a team ready to make a desperate and bad move. If we can get Hart and some picks I’d be for it.

This post?

 

[NAOS]

I'm not about to overreact to a few games....but I've also been thinking this trade is overdue. I was hoping something would happen during the off-season. The Jazz have more than enough scoring on this roster while also having significant needs.

I would agree with others that making a trade is difficult, but it's something we should be looking for. As far as realistic targets, I think Josh Hart stands out the most. I understand the reservations about him. Bogey is a better player than him, but I think we could get Hart and come away with some draft capital too. Huge tax savings too if you care about a billionaires wallet.

This post?

 

[NAOS]

Both of those suggest moving Bogie for Hart. And there’s a suggestion getting some picks, too. Like, more than one. Not happening.

There’s also the suggestion that we take advantage of NOP because they’re crazy.

I hardly see how this all squares

 

[NAOS]

We’d definitely been taking serious advantage of the Pels if we swapped Bogie for Hart and nabbed a 2nd rounder. Eyeroll. But if they’re gonna expose their neck like that, then you gotta chop it off.

You said I made this up. Sounds pretty ****ing close to me. You’re dodging.

 

[jom2003]

I just got a new mechanical keyboard and I'm totally geeked out about typing on it. I appreciate you for giving me the opportunity to restate my reason, rational, and evidence several times over and over. It is circular when you present your rationale, which is informed by statistics and a logical thought process, and it is met with something along the lines of "you're a downer" or "you haven't watched" because that's not a real counter argument and doesn't add anything to discussion.

Josh Hart's toughness might be the most defining aspect of his game. He guards everyone, rebounds better than most bigs, and no matter who he's guarding he adds a lot to the defense. Certainly an upgrade on defense over Bogey/Clarkson who he would be replacing. I think that defensive upgrade would be worth it when compared to the offensive loss. I would be extremely confident in our offense if we moved on from one of those scorers. Bad timing after last nights game, but this team has proven their ability to score a man down.

Larry Nance isn't having a good time in Portland right now either and there may be a way to trade for him.

 

[KqWIN]

You said I made this up. Sounds pretty ****ing close to me. You’re dodging.

If you can show me the post where I said it would be Hart and a 2nd rounder I will give you one billion dollars. If you are having a hard time finding when I actually answered I'll give you a hint....maybe look at the reply when you asked the question. I promise it's not in your imagination like the 2nd round suggestion. Maybe the reason why you have such a problem with me is that make things up that I never said and convince yourself that your made up truth is actually real.

You know what....to save you some sanity I willl direct link it to you https://jazzfanz.com/threads/thoughts-on-trading-bogdanvic.156088/post-2092757

 

[NAOS]

I don't really understand the Hart argument. Are we defining a players fit by what we arbitrarily label as their position? What makes Hart a guard and Bogey/Clarkson a wing? Or do you have it the other way around? That label doesn't mean a thing, what matters is how they play. Hart is a big time grinder and competes on defense. He gets more rebounds than Clarkson/Bogey combined. He fits the need and trade concept fairly well as a valuable low usage player. His versatility and ability to fit into any of our lineups is a selling point to me.

Anderson has been a favorite of mine for years and yes, I have watched him play. Numerica seems to like him as well, maybe you should ask him if he's actually watched him play. You see, that argument doesn't really mean anything. I could just as easily say that anyone who thinks Anderson is overrated has little experience watching him play. It means nothing. You don't get make up reasons for another person to like/dislike a player, especially when they are not true and you have no clue if it's true. Anderson did have quite the offensive jump last season which is a reason why I really wanted him this summer, but throughout his entire career he's been a value low usage player and great defender.

Roco, I'm not too high on him myself, but he is the right idea as a player. I don't think he has been available or will be. HH mentioned a scenario where the Blazers trade CJ for Ben and that opens up a logical swap, and I could see that happening. I would do that trade if it was presented, but that's a real outlier scenario IMO.

The most realistic trade is for Hart. NOP is primed to make a terrible move and taking advantage of desperate, bad FO's is a huge market ineeficiency. I would move Bogey or Clarkson for Hart and he should come with extra sweetners. I don't think draft capital is a priority, but it's never a bad thing and you never know when we are going to overpay for another C. I think we could get Hart and at least one 1st. They have a whole mess of picks to make that trade work. Will it happen? Probably not, I don't think the FO is considering moving Bogey or Clarkson. I don't think the FO is looking to make any move, but that doesn't stop people from suggesting moves they think can help the team.

Yeah, that’s not a complete trade suggestion. We’re getting an undisclosed number of picks.

And the suggestion that I went off the rails by saying a 2nd instead of a 1st, is just straight up ridiculous.

 

[NAOS]

Ingram really struggles to guard anyone. Can’t see one good reason why NOP will panic and swap Hart for a less defensively oriented player. But I guess it doesn’t matter in this thread.... All I have to do is say they cray and will send multiple picks in order to get a player that isn’t on Zion’s timeline and might be a nightmare next to Ingram. Job done.

 

[KqWIN]

Yeah, that’s not a complete trade suggestion. We’re getting an undisclosed number of picks.

And the suggestion that I went off the rails by saying a 2nd instead of a 1st, is just straight up ridiculous.

Any reason why you switched 2nd round pick with “at least one 1st”? You did make that up, it’s ok to admit it. People make mistakes all the time, but there is a difference between at least one 1st and a 2nd. How would you feel if the Jazz traded at least one first for a 2nd? I imagine you wouldn’t be happy with that. Did you go off the rails? Depends on what you mean by that…but I know for sure you made that up.

If you disagree with the value we can get….sure that’s legitimate. You could have just said that’s unrealistic instead of making up your own trade and saying it’s bad….but whatever. The market on Bogey/Clarkson is kind of fuzzy. To be quite honest, I’m not even sure who would be more highly valued by the market between. It’s tough to really know trade value and not many good reference points out there. Covington had two years left and got two firsts. Gordon had less than one year left and yielded Harris, Hampton, and a 1st. How do those two stack up to Bogey and Clarkson? Depends on who you ask. It’s difficult because the difference in playing style and there’s also age differences. Fournier and THJ both got hefty contracts this summer which indicates that scoring still comes at a high price point.

But even if Bogey and Clarkson have good value, there’s still not that many targets out there. I have a strong desire to move some offense for defense, but if there’s no trade there’s no trade. I’m sure everyone would like to make a move that helps the team.

 

[fallenchicken]

Any trade we make will be to get off salary and make our team worse. You should be rooting for this contending team to stand pat. This year is our window. Maybe next year, but we lose again, maybe not. This is our shot. You'd be crazy to move one of the major pieces in the middle of this season imo. That's something you do next offseason. Because, like people have pointed out, there is no trade that makes us immediately better.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

rob peter to pay paul. create a whole new problem to solve your old problem. what's the point. we had issues scoring the ball with Rubio/Crowder/Favors and couldn't get out of the second round. we now have issues staying in front of guys and still can't get out of the second round. talking about progress.

Look, we went from a lineup with almost exclusively DEFENSIVE minded players to a lineup with almost exclusively OFFENSIVE minded players plus Rudy for balance.

I am not suggesting dumping Donovan, JC, Bogey, and Conley for a bunch of defensive stoppers. Its that bogey is a bit of a luxury on a team that could use another Royce O'Neal type 3 and D player vs a purely offensive minded, minimal defensive minded Bogey.

 

[NUMBERICA]

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

Bogey has missed zero games since he has been on the jazz. Jazz havent been elite without bogey offensively as they have never been without bogey.

That doesn't say much. The clippers were on pace for 155 points against our starters if I recall. It wasn't good.

Bogey is great to have. But for his contract I think its clear that many of us would not be broken hearted if he was swapped out for a more dynamic defender who can still spread the floor.

Do I expect it to happen? No way jose. Would trading Bogey for a more defensive minded stopper who could stretch the floor reasonably well make the team better? I think it could.

But those types of players are a luxury too. We will just have to see what happens.

 

[NAOS]

Any reason why you switched 2nd round pick with “at least one 1st”? You did make that up, it’s ok to admit it. People make mistakes all the time, but there is a difference between at least one 1st and a 2nd. How would you feel if the Jazz traded at least one first for a 2nd? I imagine you wouldn’t be happy with that. Did you go off the rails? Depends on what you mean by that…but I know for sure you made that up.

If you disagree with the value we can get….sure that’s legitimate. You could have just said that’s unrealistic instead of making up your own trade and saying it’s bad….but whatever. The market on Bogey/Clarkson is kind of fuzzy. To be quite honest, I’m not even sure who would be more highly valued by the market between. It’s tough to really know trade value and not many good reference points out there. Covington had two years left and got two firsts. Gordon had less than one year left and yielded Harris, Hampton, and a 1st. How do those two stack up to Bogey and Clarkson? Depends on who you ask. It’s difficult because the difference in playing style and there’s also age differences. Fournier and THJ both got hefty contracts this summer which indicates that scoring still comes at a high price point.

But even if Bogey and Clarkson have good value, there’s still not that many targets out there. I have a strong desire to move some offense for defense, but if there’s no trade there’s no trade. I’m sure everyone would like to make a move that helps the team.

“I think we could get Hart and at least one 1st.“ Those are your words, not mine. They were in the post you linked for me. For sanity’s sake.

And, I said that your draft capital projections were unrealistic in an earlier post. I guess you missed that. So thats two accuracy errors on your end.

Lots of consideration in your post here. But you fail to mention the ages of these players at the moment of transaction. Surly that matters, right? And surly Zion’s timeline is a consideration, right? And don’t switch this up and start talking about Clarkson.


The standard of accuracy that you seem to think is standard operating procedure around here is hilarious. You think you’ve found a window to push me out of; and to think that you’ve made good, consistent, reasonable sense. More lols.

 

[KqWIN]

“I think we could get Hart and at least one 1st.“ Those are your words, not mine. They were in the post you linked for me. For sanity’s sake. Hmmm. Lol.

And, I said that your draft capital projections were unrealistic in an earlier post. I guess you missed that. So thats two accuracy errors on your end.

Lots of consideration in your post here. But you fail to mention the ages of these players at the moment of transaction. Surly that matters, right? And surly Zion’s timeline is a consideration, right? And don’t switch this up and start talking about Clarkson.


The standard of accuracy that you seem to think is standard operating procedure around here is hilarious. You think you’ve found a window to push me out of; and to think that you’ve made good, consistent, reasonable sense. More lols.

Those are my words. And what did you say my words were? Not the same. You took the liberty of changing them and arguing against what you made up.

Literally said a trade might not be possible and that it’s difficult to find a partner, over and over again. I also made sure, several times, to mention that my motivations were not Bogey specific. They were scorer for defender.

If you’re going double down on making things up to argue against, even my mechanical keyboard can’t save this conversation. You got me, I don’t know how to defend statements you made up for me. I’ll take the L and reconsider the statement you made for me and get used to strawmans that are standard operating procedure.

 

[NAOS]

Those my my words. And what did you say my words were? Right, not the same.

Literally said a trade might not be possible and that it’s difficult to find a partner, over and over again. I also made sure, several times, to mention that my motivations were not Bogey specific. They were scorer for defender.

If you’re going double down on making things up to argue against, even my mechanical keyboard can’t save this conversation. You got me, I don’t know how to defend statements you made up for me. I’ll take the L and reconsider the statement you made for me and get used to strawmans that are standard operating procedure.

Yeah, wow, this is all so imbalanced. I’m gonna take a step back and imagine how we’re going to brutalize NOP by sending out Bogdanovic (see thread title; but, ok, let’s entertain Clarkson) and get back Hart. In a year that we’ve clearly made title aspirations.

I’ll get back to you.

Btw, noted your dodge on the age-related issues.

 

[fishonjazz]

Look, we went from a lineup with almost exclusively DEFENSIVE minded players to a lineup with almost exclusively OFFENSIVE minded players plus Rudy for balance.

I am not suggesting dumping Donovan, JC, Bogey, and Conley for a bunch of defensive stoppers. Its that bogey is a bit of a luxury on a team that could use another Royce O'Neal type 3 and D player vs a purely offensive minded, minimal defensive minded Bogey.

But you forgot the third transition that already happened.
We were almost exclusively defensive like you said. Then we were almost exclusively offensive (although we were a top 5 defensive team with that roster but whatever). Then we picked up Gay, paschall, whiteside, and butler so we are more balanced.
5-1 and just beat the defending champs at their place.
Happiness for jazz fans all around


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[fishonjazz]

That doesn't say much. The clippers were on pace for 155 points against our starters if I recall. It wasn't good.

You show me a great defensive team that has never allowed a team to score hella points.
You can even pick the best defensive team in the league. Im betting some team dropped 130 points in regulation even against them.
Probably a bunch of times.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[KqWIN]

Yeah, wow, this is all so imbalanced. I’m gonna take a step back and imagine how we’re going to brutalize NOP by sending out Bogdanovic (see thread title; but, ok, let’s entertain Clarkson) and get back Hart. In a year that we’ve clearly made title aspirations.

I’ll get back to you.

Btw, noted your dodge on the age-related issues.

I’ve explained why I think NOP would want to trade several times, but also acknowledged why it might not still be possible. You also dodge so much of what I say, ask me to say it again like it wasn’t said, and then don’t have anything to say in return about it. I’m just lucky when you don’t make up the thing I said for me.