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THT Will Be The Starting PG

HermanG said:
This frontcourt spacing nonsense has to stop. Not directed at you but I just keep hearing this when we have had a look at the spacing on two games already.

These are our first 4 offensive possessions from last game:

View attachment 15180View attachment 15181View attachment 15182View attachment 15183

THE PAINT IS LITERALLY EMPTY ON 3 OF THEM. Only in the last one where they sag off THT and its more clogged. Yet even on that instance its not our front court that is clogging anything.
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The paint isn't actually empty in any of those. There are clipper players surrounding it and in perfect position to collapse which is what we see happen constantly. The Clippers when healthy are a particularly tough matchup for us though with the amount of length they have with perimeter defenders.
 
HeatCheck said:
I came into the preseason thinking it would be Dunn and really nothing has changed my mind on that yet. If they are going to successfully incorporate John Collins early on I would think the steadier player might be the best choice as the starting PG at least to begin the season. They can't have THT hoisting step back 3's early in the shot clock. Say what you want about Collins' fit during the first 2 preseason games but Atlanta never could get him to fit long term next to other non-shooting bigs such as Capela.

It's pretty clear at least to me Keyonte might already be the best PG on the roster and it's just a matter of time before Hardy is comfortable enough to start the rook. IOW whoever begins as the opening day PG might be very temporary as it's going to be Keyonte's job in short order. Reading the tea leaves it also appears Keyonte and Ochai are likely the eventual starting backcourt by midseason unless they make a deal for a bigger fish.

Clarkson, Sexton, and THT are all varying types of combo guards and I'm assuming 2 of them get dealt by the deadline. The one left standing, don't really care which one, can be the long term 6th man.
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I am pondering your analysis while preparing to consume ale. The Enlightenment continues in new manifestations.
 

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sip said:
How much of that production came when going up against the clips end of bench guys?
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A lot, but guys like Mann/Batum/Martin J/Bones were still playing. It was a mix of rotation guys (even starter), deep 2nd units, and some end of bench. It was less end of bench than what Dunn did on Sunday (he wasn't feasting on Xavier Moon and Jordan Miller) but somehow that was enough for people to salivate over Dunn even though it was a much less impressive performance.


THT just has a lot of unnecessary hate on this forum. I'm sure it's partly due to me being his biggest champion and a lot of posters on this board just so things out of spite because they lack knowledge of ball
 
It's still shocking to me so many people on this forum both cape for Dunn and espouse how worried they are about spacing

Yes, THT will take bad shots from time to time. But taking the occasional bad shot is better for spacing than passing up wide open corner 3s which Dunn did 2 or 3 times last night.

I will take the aggressive player over the passive one any day. THT played a good first quarter even though the stats weren't there. The 2nd quarter he pressed too much and that's probably why Hardy sat him to start the 3rs, but then he came back in the game and played the way he should. He was aggressive getting to the rim and was igniting transition opportunities for the team with his hit ahead passing. Dunn played against the same guys THT did and the offense was not running nearly as well

If Dunn misses an open 3 he probably will pass up the next few open shots. That's a spacing killer. THT doesn't give a ****, for better or worse, but that is part of his talent and how he is able to make such great plays because he doesn't hesitate.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
A lot, but guys like Mann/Batum/Martin J/Bones were still playing. It was a mix of rotation guys (even starter), deep 2nd units, and some end of bench. It was less end of bench than what Dunn did on Sunday (he wasn't feasting on Xavier Moon and Jordan Miller) but somehow that was enough for people to salivate over Dunn even though it was a much less impressive performance.


THT just has a lot of unnecessary hate on this forum. I'm sure it's partly due to me being his biggest champion and a lot of posters on this board just so things out of spite because they lack knowledge of ball
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I have been a strong THT supporter from the second we traded for him and think he can be a solid long term piece here. I just think it is important to have perspective with how he has looked playing the starters and against the opponents regular rotation guys. When the game breaks down into a more free flowing style of play THT becomes a far more effective player.
 
sip said:
I have been a strong THT supporter from the second we traded for him and think he can be a solid long term piece here. I just think it is important to have perspective with how he has looked playing the starters and against the opponents regular rotation guys. When the game breaks down into a more free flowing style of play THT becomes a far more effective player.
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Sure, I don't think THT is a long term primary ballhandlers, but he is already pretty good at a lot of PGy things . I feel more comfortable with THT learning the next steps (like half court one with a roller) than I do Sexton or Dunn learning to take the level of volume on jumpers that a starting guard needs.
 
Spacing is a lot about shooting gravity, but it's also a lot about making quick decisions. Sexton just can't make quick decisions. Dunn will terminate spacing with how many shots he declines.

Clarkson can be quick at times. Keyonte looks promising in that regard, but you can still tell he has to think the game.

If the goal of the backcourt is to maximize the front court then you have to start THT/Clarkson. THT will get you in transition by making your team play faster (Sexton is a better individual player in transition, but he can't grab and go or grab and outlet like THT can due to his lack of rebounding). Then Clarkson will cover you in the half court
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Spacing is a lot about shooting gravity, but it's also a lot about making quick decisions. Sexton just can't make quick decisions. Dunn will terminate spacing with how many shots he declines.

Clarkson can be quick at times. Keyonte looks promising in that regard, but you can still tell he has to think the game.

If the goal of the backcourt is to maximize the front court then you have to start THT/Clarkson. THT will get you in transition by making your team play faster (Sexton is a better individual player in transition, but he can't grab and go or grab and outlet like THT can due to his lack of rebounding). Then Clarkson will cover you in the half court
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Right now unfortunately we don't have shooters with gravity. You look at those pictures Herman posted and you see at least 3 defenders in a position to collapse the paint in a split second. Shooters with gravity pulls those guys out another step further and make them hesitant to collapse. Right now Lauri is probably the only offensive player that teams are hesitant to collapse off of.
 
sip said:
The paint isn't actually empty in any of those. There are clipper players surrounding it and in perfect position to collapse which is what we see happen constantly. The Clippers when healthy are a particularly tough matchup for us though with the amount of length they have with perimeter defenders.
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Ok you have some super weird standard for empty paint where its only empty if everyone is being faceguarded on the perimeter or something. Also Kessler gets like 6 feet of more cushion from Zu than Collins gets from Kawhi but still they are "both clogging the paint".

Here are Clippers first 4 possessions (2nd position is still in transition, so a bit misleading as they played the ball to Zubac fast there):
Clips1.JPGClips4.JPGClips2.JPGClips3.JPG

How does their spacing look compared to ours?
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I think they are just letting Sexton get a shot because he does have enough talent to warrant a chance.
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I think they are also doing it because they know he wants to do it. They can appease him and say they tried and it wasn't working. I just think Hardy is smart enough to know the THT/Sexton pairing is garbage so there has to be some other plan/motivation/etc. It might be that JC is the other starter and he's starting them both as pg to say they both got a chance? I also wonder if he is trying to avoid a Keyonte Sexton bench pairing that would be problematic.

At this point I think the best starting lineup is Dunn or THT with JC and the frontcourt.
 
HermanG said:
Ok you have some super weird standard for empty paint where its only empty if everyone is being faceguarded on the perimeter or something. Also Kessler gets like 6 feet of more cushion from Zu than Collins gets from Kawhi but still they are "both clogging the paint".

Here are Clippers first 4 possessions (2nd position is still in transition, so a bit misleading as they played the ball to Zubac fast there):
View attachment 15185View attachment 15188View attachment 15186View attachment 15187

How does their spacing look compared to ours?
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There spacing looks way better.
 
HermanG said:
I can see that. I was just pretty impressed with some of the stuff I saw and didnt facepalm nearly as often. Maybe the truth is closer to your 1:1 but it has still exceeded my expectations. Also one important point is I dont think he has shot a single wide open stepback 3 yet.

The stats also look nice:
46 minutes total, 37 points on 14/31 FG (not great, but good compared to last year), 5/14 on 3 pointers, 10 rebounds and 8 assists to 3 turnovers.

But I totally agree lineups have been weird, as was starting another game with THT/Sexton after they obviously had some chemistry issues with that lineup in Hawaii. But Hardy is experimenting for sure. I mean I think at one point we had Dunn, THT, Keyonte, Lauri and KO on the court together. Not a rotation lineup that I had on my bingo card.
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There are always going to be mistakes. You don't get the tough circus finishes without some crazy BS. He needs to cut out like 3-4 of those three pointers (between the 2 games) there are a few he shoots that are just unnecessary. I think he can maybe do it. You have to eliminate the unforced errors if the nature of your game is inefficient. That's part of what will make him passable.
 
I think Dunn + JC are the best option at the 1 and 2 if the team is looking to win now. But I get the appeal of THT. He's highly skilled and possesses great athleticism. He has a ton of upside, and might end up being the best option as the starting point guard if he improves his decision making.
 
Problem with THT is for him to be most effective he needs the ball in his hands a lot and routinely takes the most shots on the team which is not a winning formula.

Sexton just isn’t going to be the type of PG that Hardy wants. You can see he is pressing and isn’t playing his game at all.

Truth is Hardy isn’t enamored with any PG at the moment (Keyonte isn’t ready just yet). That’s why we were willing to trade multiple picks for Jrue.
 
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