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Trade deadline discussion

KqWIN said:
Roco was just traded for two first round picks. He obviously had more years on his deal at the time, but that caliber of player is able to yield a first round pick time and time again…even as a rental. Roco is the mostly highly valued type of role player in the league.

2028 might as well not exist to me. We won’t be contenders by then and I’m not expecting to have a better Jazz team in decades. Protect the pick and get the deal done if it’s available. The chances of that pick contributing more to contending team is extremely slim.

Teams tank year after year to have stars like Rudy and Don on the same team and they aren’t even guaranteed to get one. I don’t think people recognize how special the position we are is. I’m using everything on the team with Rudy and Don on it because there’s no guarantee that it will last much longer and who knows when we’ll get a team this good again.
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I thought that was a major overpay at the time by the Blazers for Covington and it turns out that it was. I also think a first round pick for an expiring Covington would be an overpay and I seriously doubt Ainge would actually do it.
 
Jingled said:
I thought that was a major overpay at the time by the Blazers for Covington and it turns out that it was. I also think a first round pick for an expiring Covington would be an overpay and I seriously doubt Ainge would actually do it.
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Don’t see how it’s an overpay based on the history of this league. Good, starter level vet that everyone needs has also been a first round pick…even as a rental. We’re also talking about a 2028 protected pick….which has way less trade value than a pick that comes up sooner.

If you’re not willing to put that pick or Bogey on the table, I don’t think you can complain about the defense because you weren’t willing to put pieces on the table that could actually address the issue. Our offense is so damn good. Even through this horrific stretch we’ve played like a top 10 offense. Don out, Rudy out, tough schedule, Bogey not playing well…we can still score. There may be regret in trading a pick 6 years in the future….but I fear we will regret not even attempting to address the defense when we’re so dominant on offense and have Don+Rudy still in uniform.

If we’re being honest, the only trades I expect Ainge to make are almost very good trades or more cash money savings for Ryan Smith. That’s all we’ve seen from these two lately.
 
KqWIN said:
Don’t see how it’s an overpay based on the history of this league. Good, starter level vet that everyone needs has also been a first round pick…even as a rental. We’re also talking about a 2028 protected pick….which has way less trade value than a pick that comes up sooner.

If you’re not willing to put that pick or Bogey on the table, I don’t think you can complain about the defense because you weren’t willing to put pieces on the table that could actually address the issue. Our offense is so damn good. Even through this horrific stretch we’ve played like a top 10 offense. Don out, Rudy out, tough schedule, Bogey not playing well…we can still score. There may be regret in trading a pick 6 years in the future….but I fear we will regret not even attempting to address the defense when we’re so dominant on offense and have Don+Rudy still in uniform.

If we’re being honest, the only trades I expect Ainge to make are almost very good trades or more cash money savings for Ryan Smith. That’s all we’ve seen from these two lately.
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My only quibble is RoCo was traded for two firsts when he had two full seasons on his deal… he’s used up 65-75% of that value already… so a first is steep. I’d think his value is two decent seconds or a second and less returning salary so they avoid the tax. They may want to keep his bird rights to re-sign him. So a super protected future first… that turns into a second could be the ticket… what the kids call a fake first. I think it would have to be 2027. Make it top 18 protected or it becomes a second. They get to hold a presser saying they got a first… and they save a little face.
 
LoPo said:
I don't think Roco is the solution whatsoever. We will be regretting giving up a pick for him in a few months.

If you are giving up a first, be bolder. Think younger and more long term.
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Which young player who helps us win now is available for a first… I would give a fake first for RoCo but nothing more.

The CJ to NOP rumors are popping up again… They put Hart and something else in that deal… can I interest you in JC for Hart? What about JC and a fake first for Hart?
 
KqWIN said:
Everyone seems to think that Roco sucks because he’s not prime Ron Artest. He’s maybe slipped a bit, but he’d be the best defender on our team besides Rudy by a mile. We know how bad the defense is…and yet the thought of trying to improve it with well established great defenders like Roco or Smart gets everyone so queasy.

If you don’t think those are great defenders and/or won’t change the defense, to each their own. But understand you’re rolling the dice again with a team that completely embarrassed 2 years in a row and has only looked worse since then. Don’t complain about the defense if you aren’t willing to put serious chips on the board to try and fix it. We’re gonna regret trading Bogey….or we’re gonna regret giving up a 2028 pick. Yeah, maybe. But it’s highly likely we’re going to regret wasting this opportunity too. This team isn’t worth preserving. Horribly imbalanced roster.

As bad as things are right now, this is still likely the best chance to win the title in decades. Having Mitchell+Gobert on the same roster is incredibly rare and we don’t know how long that will last. It could seriously end this summer for all we know. There is no rebuilding, the time is now. The entire rotation is old outside of Don and you can’t flip everyone to extend that window. Even if you could, how long until Don demands out? He’s not waiting for another cycle of young players to develop. It’s all in right now.
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No one is saying Covington sucks, we’re saying he’s overrated. And he is. The *idea* of RoCo has been better than the *reality* for a while now, it’s why he’s been traded so often. Also, if you’re worried about the roster being old, keep in mind that he’s only four months younger than Bojan.

You’re also assuming there would be much interest from other teams in a first round pick 6 years from now. What GM besides Presti would care about a pick they may not be around long enough to use?

If you can get him for a reasonable price, then of course go for it. Let’s just not act like he’s the missing piece and has to be acquired at all costs.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
My only quibble is RoCo was traded for two firsts when he had two full seasons on his deal… he’s used up 65-75% of that value already… so a first is steep. I’d think his value is two decent seconds or a second and less returning salary so they avoid the tax. They may want to keep his bird rights to re-sign him. So a super protected future first… that turns into a second could be the ticket… what the kids call a fake first. I think it would have to be 2027. Make it top 18 protected or it becomes a second. They get to hold a presser saying they got a first… and they save a little face.
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Sure...I just think you're ignoring the history of the NBA if you think that a first, especially one 6 years out that might even be fake, is some kind of huge overpay for Roco. People are wayyy too down on him.

Through this trade deadline discussion, it's really open my eyes to how different the perception is here about certain players....especially our own. It shouldn't be a surprise because this is a Jazz centric forum, but I do think people are out of whack with their trade evaluations here.
 
campaignist said:
No one is saying Covington sucks, we’re saying he’s overrated. And he is. The *idea* of RoCo has been better than the *reality* for a while now, it’s why he’s been traded so often. Also, if you’re worried about the roster being old, keep in mind that he’s only four months younger than Bojan.

You’re also assuming there would be much interest from other teams in a first round pick 6 years from now. What GM besides Presti would care about a pick they may not be around long enough to use?

If you can get him for a reasonable price, then of course go for it. Let’s just not act like he’s the missing piece and has to be acquired at all costs.
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He's been traded as a valuable piece for huge packages several times. Teams want him badly and have given up + received a lot of value for him. The idea of him is so good because everyone freaking needs him.

I'm not worried about his age, I'm saying the entire team is built to win now. A 2028 pick is not helping you win now with this roster but Covington can.

I'm not saying we should throw the farm at him anyways, but people have really skewed perceptions of what a reasonable price is. Players of Covington's value have traditionally gone for more than we can offer. A 2028 protected pick isn't a good trade chip. Your point about GM's not caring about such a distant pick is correct. Acting like that's some giant overpay or a huge trade chip is just not true. Covington doesn't have to be acquired, but something does have to be addressed with the defense. There's no way around it. If you're not even willing to give up a very distant protected pick to address it, I don't want to see any complaining about the defense.
 
LoPo said:
I don't think Roco is the solution whatsoever. We will be regretting giving up a pick for him in a few months.

If you are giving up a first, be bolder. Think younger and more long term.
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I'm going to pull an Infection and say, who??? Who is this "bold" young player that we can get with a 2028 first round pick?

When it's 2028 and Mitchell is long gone and Gobert is old...we're going to be thinking about how good they were and wish we could have done more with them. Even if we traded that pick and we totally fall on our face again, I would have no regrets because we at least gave it our best shot when we had our best shot.

The solution to winning a championship isn't holding onto a pick 6 years down the road.
 
KqWIN said:
Sure...I just think you're ignoring the history of the NBA if you think that a first, especially one 6 years out that might even be fake, is some kind of huge overpay for Roco. People are wayyy too down on him.

Through this trade deadline discussion, it's really open my eyes to how different the perception is here about certain players....especially our own. It shouldn't be a surprise because this is a Jazz centric forum, but I do think people are out of whack with their trade evaluations here.
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I'd do a fake first. It'd have to be 2027 because we own our second that year (I think) so if it landed top 18 then they get our second. Roco is worth essentially what PJ Tucker was last year... he got a "first" but it was a late first and the also gave an early second... so essentially they got to move up a few slots. His bird rights would have some value. I doubt they get an honest to goodness first without taking on bad money.

To be fair... RoCo looked washed early in the year... he has since picked up his play. So if folks haven't checked in for a while they might still be remembering early season RoCo.

My biggest thing is I am not giving up an unprotected or low protection pick in the future unless its for something super awesome. I don't think there is anything that moves the needle for us.
 
KqWIN said:
I'm going to pull an Infection and say, who??? Who is this "bold" young player that we can get with a 2028 first round pick?

When it's 2028 and Mitchell is long gone and Gobert is old...we're going to be thinking about how good they were and wish we could have done more with them. Even if we traded that pick and we totally fall on our face again, I would have no regrets because we at least gave it our best shot when we had our best shot.

The solution to winning a championship isn't holding onto a pick 6 years down the road.
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Roco isn't worth it. I don't rate him highly at all.

I'll propose a list in a bit.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
KqWIN said:
I'm going to pull an Infection and say, who??? Who is this "bold" young player that we can get with a 2028 first round pick?

When it's 2028 and Mitchell is long gone and Gobert is old...we're going to be thinking about how good they were and wish we could have done more with them. Even if we traded that pick and we totally fall on our face again, I would have no regrets because we at least gave it our best shot when we had our best shot.

The solution to winning a championship isn't holding onto a pick 6 years down the road.
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Part of me thinks we should do nothing... part of me says the title has never been more open. I think you and I have been on the same page with regard to thinking this team needed two trades... not just one. Maybe with Joe's injury they are willing to try that approach.

Memphis could be a juggernaut for years. They are built smart and have crazy buy in. As guys get closer to getting paid some things may change but **** that team looks awesome and they have uber-flexibility going forward. Other than them it seems the other teams are fading or stalled... so maybe you can make a move that props the window open a little longer. Bogey and Mike are the next to fade out... but they are replaceable (somewhat) and the window lives and dies with Rudy and Donovan.

I truly wish we could have just eaten the Favs salary and at least waited before throwing a pick down to offload it. Find another move to cut salary (maybe we did and Quin killed it). That first could be much more valuable to actually adding talent than the breathing room the salary dump created. Rudy Gay is a nice addition (I still believe that) but could we have been okay rolling with Paschall? Could we have made the signing and figured out the salary dump later. Maybe Favs finds a fountain of youth for a minute and his value pops back up. It was a fair trade but its kind of a mental block for me right now.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I'd do a fake first. It'd have to be 2027 because we own our second that year (I think) so if it landed top 18 then they get our second. Roco is worth essentially what PJ Tucker was last year... he got a "first" but it was a late first and the also gave an early second... so essentially they got to move up a few slots. His bird rights would have some value. I doubt they get an honest to goodness first without taking on bad money.

To be fair... RoCo looked washed early in the year... he has since picked up his play. So if folks haven't checked in for a while they might still be remembering early season RoCo.

My biggest thing is I am not giving up an unprotected or low protection pick in the future unless its for something super awesome. I don't think there is anything that moves the needle for us.
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I think Roco is wayyyy ahead of Tucker in value. First of all, Roco was a better player to Tucker to begin with. Then you take into account that Roco is much younger and PJ basically looked dead on HOU. Roco may not be at the height of his powers, but there isn't a legitimate question as to whether or not he's still an NBA player like Tucker was at the time.

Tucker came in huge for the Bucks last year and I'm not sure they're champions without him. It's rare that these trades become the difference, but it's also rare that a protected pick 6 years down the road becomes the difference too. The Jazz can work out what the protections are, but I think anything that is lottery protected that far down the road is fair. Ideally I'd hope we are able to do some kind of trade with JC instead, but I'm willing to put that pick on the line for this team. I'm very much doubting the long term future of Don+Rudy so I'm saying we give it hell while we have them.

If the Jazz were a killer FO, they'd maybe even be able to work it out with Roco ahead of time....I mean Roco's agent...to agree to a contract so it's not just a rental.
 
How about this deal... Again assuming NOP are truly going after CJ...

We send JC for Hart and in a separate deal we send Royce into their trade exception. Maybe they send a second round pick. Saves us a bunch of money this year and next. Hart is a more dynamic version of Royce. House can cover some of the gaps... but without Joe I think having a slightly more dynamic offensive player would be a great help.

The rumor is NOP would send Hart and JV for CJ. NOP wants to keep JV but Portland isn't going for Hart, Hayes, Sato... so they'd need to add a pick. JC is not as good as CJ but at 1/3 of the price he does a nice impression... plus they can keep more assets.
 
KqWIN said:
I think Roco is wayyyy ahead of Tucker in value. First of all, Roco was a better player to Tucker to begin with. Then you take into account that Roco is much younger and PJ basically looked dead on HOU. Roco may not be at the height of his powers, but there isn't a legitimate question as to whether or not he's still an NBA player like Tucker was at the time.

Tucker came in huge for the Bucks last year and I'm not sure they're champions without him. It's rare that these trades become the difference, but it's also rare that a protected pick 6 years down the road becomes the difference too. The Jazz can work out what the protections are, but I think anything that is lottery protected that far down the road is fair. Ideally I'd hope we are able to do some kind of trade with JC instead, but I'm willing to put that pick on the line for this team. I'm very much doubting the long term future of Don+Rudy so I'm saying we give it hell while we have them.

If the Jazz were a killer FO, they'd maybe even be able to work it out with Roco ahead of time....I mean Roco's agent...to agree to a contract so it's not just a rental.
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I agree RoCo is better than Tucker... but everyone knew Tucker was dogging it. Well.... at least I did. They also took back a year of bad salary in that deal in DJ Augustine... I forgot that. Expiring salary and a lotto protected 2027 pick is fair imo... if they can get more then we have to walk away.

I do like having the extension conversation as well. Though I think that means a trade of Bogey or JC next year. Is he extension eligible? I think so.
 
Eminence said:
I can see the argument for Hart over Royce, but that seems like change for the sake of change.
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The salary flexibility it creates is very good. It also removes a bad defender from the rotation and Quin can't rely on the bench offense of just letting JC do whatever he wants.
 
The advantages of RoCo are two fold. He can help us have a legitimate defense while going small. He is very disruptive and that is something we don't have. I think we still need a guy that can stick with wings better but I am not sure we can address all of our defensive weaknesses in one trade.

He struggles in one on one defense with quicker players and his shot comes and goes. I like him better than Josh Richardson and some of the others thrown out there. If he comes at a fair price then sure.
 
On the Hart deal... it also lessens the blow of losing one of Donovan's friends in the trade. Hart and Donovan are also homies... not that it should matter but it almost certainly does a little to the front office.
 
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