Trade deadline discussion

[Keefe]

Mike and Bogey for AD. **** it.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I love Butler... the issue is his short contract and the fact that we kinda need to see him now or else he likely goes to waste for us. We have him signed through next year. IF he actually gets to play he may show enough to get an offer we may not be comfortable matching. The lack of playing time is likely to become a problem for him at some point personally and he may not want to be here. The first is the bigger hangup for me. Unless we offload JC or Mike I just don't see him playing here. It kinda sucks.

It’s a huge travesty that Forrest plays over him, I mean what does Forrest actually do?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s a huge travesty that Forrest plays over him, I mean what does Forrest actually do?

He plays above average perimeter defense.

And I think he's viewed as this great caretaker of the offense, but its the opposite. He doesn't shoot the shots you have to shoot because he can't make them... he turns it over a lot and 90% of the turnovers are ones where he isn't trying to do something. You could literally play Paschall there and have him bring it up the court if you want to call that a pg. Butler has struggled but a lot of his mistakes are missed shots or him trying to make passes... Forrest gets stripped doing ****ing nothing, but all of a sudden Quin is super stressed about having a perimeter defender out there. Shaq was/is a better perimeter defender and at very least would shoot the open corner three rather than driving to nowhere or turning it over. We got multiple 3 second calls because he turns down the shot... drives and has nothing so Udoka parks his *** in the paint expecting a dump off or rebound opportunity but nothing happens.

Its just comical at this point. I think Forrest and Don are homies and there is a little bit of a nod given to Trent because of that tbh.

 

[Ujfanatic]

So I've been thinking about this leadership issue all morning. Leaders need the right combination of talent and charisma. Donovan has both, but I am worried he is checking out on this organization. The damage started with the Rudy/COVID situation and was made much worse following the social backlash to Black Lives Matter/George Floyd murder. The collapses in each of the last two playoffs obviously didn't help things, but I actually think the nail in the coffin may have been the all-start team selection last year. The Jazz were playing amazing basketball leading into the all-star break - undoubtedly one of the best stretches in franchise history. And despite that he and Rudy were the last players picked for all-star teams. I think LeBron did that very strategically and I think it bothered Donovan.

I see Donovan as someone who very much wants to sit at the "cool kids table", and LeBron is the leader of the NBA Cool Kids. Rudy is clearly rejected from that club and sits at the "Freaks and Geeks table". During Donovan's rookie year all the "cool kids" were welcoming him into the league and accepting him as one of their own. Now, it feels like he either needs to sit with Rudy at the geek table or distance himself and eventually make the leap.

One of the reasons many of us love Giannis so much is that he decidedly doesn't care about the Cool Kids table. I actually think Steph is the same. I think Donovan does care, and while I wish that wasn't the case I can't blame him either. Social dynamics have a major influence on most of us.

I am more and more coming to the conclusion that Donovan and Rudy may not work together due to off-the-court issues. Trading Rudy makes us a lottery team. If, however, we could trade Donovan for another star that doesn't care about the Cool Kids table maybe we have a chance to fix the locker room issues and get back on track. The player I have thinking about this morning; Dame Lillard. His age fits the timeline of the rest of our roster much better, he has also actively rejected overtures to join the Cool Kids, already has a connection to Utah, and desperately wants to win a championship now.

 

[NUMBERICA]

If you can get Smart, Brown, and a pick for JC and Donovan it's a no-brainer at this point for me.

Make it a three-team and send the pick to San Antonio for Popovich (lol... just kidding?).

 

[Cptgrnlngs22]

Joe Ingles, Jordan Clarkson, Jared Butler and a 1st for Marcus Smart and Josh Richardson


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[LoPo]

So I've been thinking about this leadership issue all morning. Leaders need the right combination of talent and charisma. Donovan has both, but I am worried he is checking out on this organization. The damage started with the Rudy/COVID situation and was made much worse following the social backlash to Black Lives Matter/George Floyd murder. The collapses in each of the last two playoffs obviously didn't help things, but I actually think the nail in the coffin may have been the all-start team selection last year. The Jazz were playing amazing basketball leading into the all-star break - undoubtedly one of the best stretches in franchise history. And despite that he and Rudy were the last players picked for all-star teams. I think LeBron did that very strategically and I think it bothered Donovan.

I see Donovan as someone who very much wants to sit at the "cool kids table", and LeBron is the leader of the NBA Cool Kids. Rudy is clearly rejected from that club and sits at the "Freaks and Geeks table". During Donovan's rookie year all the "cool kids" were welcoming him into the league and accepting him as one of their own. Now, it feels like he either needs to sit with Rudy at the geek table or distance himself and eventually make the leap.

One of the reasons many of us love Giannis so much is that he decidedly doesn't care about the Cool Kids table. I actually think Steph is the same. I think Donovan does care, and while I wish that wasn't the case I can't blame him either. Social dynamics have a major influence on most of us.

I am more and more coming to the conclusion that Donovan and Rudy may not work together due to off-the-court issues. Trading Rudy makes us a lottery team. If, however, we could trade Donovan for another star that doesn't care about the Cool Kids table maybe we have a chance to fix the locker room issues and get back on track. The player I have thinking about this morning; Dame Lillard. His age fits the timeline of the rest of our roster much better, he has also actively rejected overtures to join the Cool Kids, already has a connection to Utah, and desperately wants to win a championship now.

I think you are 100% correct with your analysis. I do think Donovan wants to be an exposure type player. A "cool kid" as you called it. And I think Rudy is in that other category.

I think the main area where I disagree is the other stars you mentioned. Those guys like Giannis or Dame or Steph have their teams. It's built around them. They call the shots. Here, that isn't the case. We cater to Rudy. We build everything around Rudy.

Donovan could be a "cool kid" and take us places, but we don't know other than playoff performances. People on here have been bitching about Quin all day because they are starting to realize he doesn't know how to adapt. We are only built to win around Rudy. The funnel system. That has to bug Donovan. It would bug any young star in the league (Brown, etc) especially considering how Donovan has carried us in the playoffs.

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[NUMBERICA]

For those wondering, the Jazz owe a top-6 protected pick to Memphis this year and the Jazz still have a good record so there is no upside to blowing it up mid-season.

 

[LoPo]

For those wondering, the Jazz owe a top-6 protected pick to Memphis this year and the Jazz still have a good record so there is no upside to blowing it up mid-season.

I don't think anybody wants to blow it up.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

For those wondering, the Jazz owe a top-6 protected pick to Memphis this year and the Jazz still have a good record so there is no upside to blowing it up mid-season.

Also owe a 2024 pick to OKC... think its top 10 protected... another thing to consider when you throw in a first when putting together fake trades.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I don't think anybody wants to blow it up.

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Not with how many lightly-protected picks the Jazz owe.

I might be partial to it otherwise, but it simply doesn't make sense.

 

[LoPo]

Not with how many lightly-protected picks the Jazz owe.

I might be partial to it otherwise, but it simply doesn't make sense.

I want substantial change, but I want to stay competitive. I'm okay if we go .500 the rest of the regular season if it means we get more balance and long term options.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

Not with how many lightly-protected picks the Jazz owe.

I might be partial to it otherwise, but it simply doesn't make sense.

Its also why I'm not putting a pick in a deal unless its for Smart... who may change our culture... or burn us to the ground. I'm also only doing that deal if we can send JC in it... which likely isn't good enough.

So I'm likely thinking we should go the route of send out JC for expiring money or a different player with longer money. That may not happen but I think JC likely still has some trade value... like I've considered a trade of JC for Bertans if we can get a pick (he's out of the rotation in Washington and I think the coach hates him). There aren't a ton of bad contracts in that range that I think we could swap.

Then you play out the year... make Quin use all the motivation bullets he has and in the offseason you make the big trades and find a new coach. Likely stay as a playoff team and then hit the rebuild button in 2024 by clearing house.

 

[jom2003]

Blaming JC, Joe or Royce for our issues is foolish.

There are 4 people to blame:

Quin - seems inconsistent yet unwilling to think outside his own box

Rudy - sure he's a hard worker, but I don't think he's a guy who really motivates his teammates. They respect him but also seem annoyed by him. I think his comments to the media maybe have finally taken their toll

Conley - he was brought in to be our missing piece and provide savvy vet leadership. I don't see **** from him other than being a great guy and solid player

Don - playoff superstar who has to find a way to carry this team in the regular season like he has in the playoffs. His effort is not enough.

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To me Conley the player is a perfect representation of the Jazz as a team. Good, but not good enough. I mean Phoenix pulled pretty much the same move for Chris Paul. Except Chris Paul is a good enough player and MVP candidate at his best. He is the leader who will take over games in ways that Conley never could. We don't have guys that can push us to the top. We are too “nice”

 

[jom2003]

For those wondering, the Jazz owe a top-6 protected pick to Memphis this year and the Jazz still have a good record so there is no upside to blowing it up mid-season.

Trading guys for picks and nothing else in return is blowing it up. But trading guys for same caliber players with different skillets isn't. Like DM for Jaylen Brown/Ben Simmons. Bogey for Jerami Grant. Clarkson/Jingles for Josh Hart/Smart/Boucher. Etc. There are trades out there that can help shakeup the roster while still keeping us competitive. And honestly it's the best way for us moving forward. This current team will take us nowhere

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

To me Conley the player is a perfect representation of the Jazz as a team. Good, but not good enough. I mean Phoenix pulled pretty much the same move for Chris Paul. Except Chris Paul is a good enough player and MVP candidate at his best. He is the leader who will take over games in ways that Conley never could. We don't have guys that can push us to the top. We are too “nice”

This... I love Mike... but zero technicals in his career... none. There is nice guy and there is too non-confrontational.

Like have we had one "players only" meeting. They are kinda cheesy but they show some leadership... some desire... some communication... and some ability to confront issues and have hard conversations. We are soft.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Trading guys for picks and nothing else in return is blowing it up. But trading guys for same caliber players with different skillets isn't. Like DM for Jaylen Brown/Ben Simmons. Bogey for Jerami Grant. Clarkson/Jingles for Boucher. Etc

I'm aware what blowing it up is. I don't think there's any rock-solid ground for this build right now, I'm kinda over it, and it's near-impossible to trade for pieces that you can build a contender on and off the court.

But like I said, given where we're at, there's not an argument for a full teardown. Kinda frustrated we've never seen that (what could we have gotten for Al or Millsap, what players could we have drafted if we had actually committed to a FULL rebuild?), so that's probably factoring into my thoughts.

In any case, we need a major shakeup in the culture, whether tweaking, re-tooling, or nuking this build.

That 2017-'18 team was damn special. I didn't believe the Jazz were contenders, I just loved that I loved the guys on the team and the identity they built. It's a shame we over-corrected in 2019.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This... I love Mike... but zero technicals in his career... none. There is nice guy and there is too non-confrontational.

Like have we had one "players only" meeting. They are kinda cheesy but they show some leadership... some desire... some communication... and some ability to confront issues and have hard conversations. We are soft.

and Mike is perfect for the Grit and Grind Grizzlies that need someone with a calm cool head because they have a lot of emotional tough guys.

Find a way to get a tough guy/ ******* or this team crashes and burns.

 

[jom2003]

This... I love Mike... but zero technicals in his career... none. There is nice guy and there is too non-confrontational.

Like have we had one "players only" meeting. They are kinda cheesy but they show some leadership... some desire... some communication... and some ability to confront issues and have hard conversations. We are soft.

And Bogey never gets his whistle. Still mad that we signed Favs instead of Crowder last off season. Could've saved our first round pick at the very least.

 

[fallenchicken]

I think you are 100% correct with your analysis. I do think Donovan wants to be an exposure type player. A "cool kid" as you called it. And I think Rudy is in that other category.

I think the main area where I disagree is the other stars you mentioned. Those guys like Giannis or Dame or Steph have their teams. It's built around them. They call the shots. Here, that isn't the case. We cater to Rudy. We build everything around Rudy.

Donovan could be a "cool kid" and take us places, but we don't know other than playoff performances. People on here have been bitching about Quin all day because they are starting to realize he doesn't know how to adapt. We are only built to win around Rudy. The funnel system. That has to bug Donovan. It would bug any young star in the league (Brown, etc) especially considering how Donovan has carried us in the playoffs.

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I think this is well put and it's something people here don't want to admit. We all love Gobert, and yes he is definitely the type of player who would stay his whole career. But we can't just blame everything on the perimeter players. This team was build around Rudy because a player like Rudy can't fit in. If he's going to be worth his max deal, you have to build everything around him. Rudy is a very limited player. he's great at what he can do, maybe the best rim defender ever, but teams have figured out how to pull him away from the rim. If he's not in the center, he's just not effective. A large chunk of our cap is committed to him. So the jazz went and got ball-handling perimeter guards who could shoot and drive. Before they did that, our team was capped by offensive liability. If the jazz wanted to be able to use gobert, they had to put only those type of players around him. And it's worked. As long as the jazz are playing the way they want to, as long as the funnel system is working, the team wins and has a great offense. But now the league has figured it out, and most teams can counter it and pull rudy out of the middle very easily. And on top of that, outside of Conley and Mitchell and Bogey, our guards and bench players have seriously declined. Ingles and Clarkeson are hurting the team this year. We need them to be good like they were last year to have a chance, but i'm not sure that's in the cards at this point.

So unless Gobert magically develops a post game, better hands, and we can start punishing teams for going small, or unless we can trade for a better, hopefully athletic guard, the jazz are kind of stuck.

If it ever came down to Mitchell or Gobert, I think the organizations first choice would be Mitchell. Mitchell is the type of player you need to win in the playoffs. Rudy is incredible but he takes up a third of your cap and you have to build the team around him, you need to have an elite offensive player to win in this league. Of course, if Mitchell is going to leave, that would change the situation. Hopefully it doesn't come to this and they can keep the core together. Because the core this year is still good. It's everyone else around them who aren't giving us what we need.