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Trade deadline discussion

For the Jazz, having an undersized back court paired with an undersized front court player (O'Neale) and a poor defensive player (Bogey) is something I consider a fatal flaw for this team. Rudy is good enough to cover up for that during the regular season, but it is exploitable in a 7 game series and I think there are lots of teams out there that can exploit us.

The Jazz could look to trade JC for a more defensive guard off the bench (e.g. Smart, Hart) but then who is finishing games? Would the Jazz put Conley on the bench to be better defensively? I do not believe Mitchell or Ingles is capable of being our starting point guard, so if you try to upgrade in size by trading Conley you need a starting caliber PG in return and I struggle to find a trade that makes sense. In theory Ben Simmons could work if the 76ers were sold on Conley, but A) that would fundamentally change the nature and structure of this team and B) I do not want Ben Simmons. I recognize he is talented, but do not like his mentality at all. I know Brogdon was debated earlier in the thread and could perhaps be an upgrade, but I'm not certain he actually is (and of course he cannot be traded until next summer anyways). We debated Lonzo during the summer and I could still see him making some sense if the Bulls thought adding Conley could expedite becoming contenders, though Lonzo's inexperience would likely push our contention window back.

Conley's shooting, playmaking, and poise have been so important to our team this year - especially with the decline of Ingles - and it is hard to say that any of these possible Conley trades would actually make the Jazz better. Any of them would probably make the offense worse and the question would be whether their size/defense would make up for it. However, as others have pointed out Conley's defense isn't actually the problem.

I know the Jazz will not trade Mitchell unless he asks to be traded and I really like Mitchell. Mitchell has been out of this world offensively in the playoffs, which would be incredibly difficult to replace. That said, he is undeniably a liability on defense. As a thought experiment I do wonder how this team would perform if you replace Mitchell with someone like Jaylen Brown.

Over the last 40+ years there have only been two NBA champions that had a starting back court 6'3 or under: the 2019 Raptors (Lowry and VanFleet) and the 1990 Pistons (Thomas and Dumars). For the Raptors, they paired their back court with tremendous size and defensive skill (Leonard, Siakam, Gasol). Assuming the Jazz are not going to trade Mitchell or Conley, I have to think that upgrading the forward positions for size/defensive/athleticism is the only other thing that makes sense. My guess is any change we do make this year will be a bench player, but I'm not certain that will be enough.
 
Tony Jones said he'd try to trade for Josh Hart.....who is the guy taken with the Jazz's 30th pick in 2017 after the Jazz traded up for Tony Bradley.

I agree with the philosophy though. I think the Jazz really need a big guard who can defend up a position or two. They want a guy with perimeter offensive skills as well as gritty defensive skills. I still think Cedi Osman would also be a good fit.

We should have gotten him in the offseason. He didn't want to be there and it didn't seem like they wanted him back either.

He's having an outstanding year. I've always been a fan but I didn't expect him to be this good. He would be even better playing for the Jazz.
 
The fact that the Jazz are saying that they want a "starting-caliber big wing" also doesn't bode well for Royce O'Neale, imo. In his last 5 games, Royce is averaging 3.5 pts and 5 rebs in just over 30 mins.

If the Jazz were to combine Royce's and Joe's salaries, that would get them to $21.8M, which matches guys like Barnes and Grant.
So all we need now is some wild scenario where Joe and Royce are the primary moving pieces in a deal that nets us someone like a Barnes or a Grant. It’ll have to be wild AF. Three or four teams. And some black magic. And a serious mortgage on our future.
 
For the Jazz, having an undersized back court paired with an undersized front court player (O'Neale) and a poor defensive player (Bogey) is something I consider a fatal flaw for this team. Rudy is good enough to cover up for that during the regular season, but it is exploitable in a 7 game series and I think there are lots of teams out there that can exploit us.

The Jazz could look to trade JC for a more defensive guard off the bench (e.g. Smart, Hart) but then who is finishing games? Would the Jazz put Conley on the bench to be better defensively? I do not believe Mitchell or Ingles is capable of being our starting point guard, so if you try to upgrade in size by trading Conley you need a starting caliber PG in return and I struggle to find a trade that makes sense. In theory Ben Simmons could work if the 76ers were sold on Conley, but A) that would fundamentally change the nature and structure of this team and B) I do not want Ben Simmons. I recognize he is talented, but do not like his mentality at all. I know Brogdon was debated earlier in the thread and could perhaps be an upgrade, but I'm not certain he actually is (and of course he cannot be traded until next summer anyways). We debated Lonzo during the summer and I could still see him making some sense if the Bulls thought adding Conley could expedite becoming contenders, though Lonzo's inexperience would likely push our contention window back.

Conley's shooting, playmaking, and poise have been so important to our team this year - especially with the decline of Ingles - and it is hard to say that any of these possible Conley trades would actually make the Jazz better. Any of them would probably make the offense worse and the question would be whether their size/defense would make up for it. However, as others have pointed out Conley's defense isn't actually the problem.

I know the Jazz will not trade Mitchell unless he asks to be traded and I really like Mitchell. Mitchell has been out of this world offensively in the playoffs, which would be incredibly difficult to replace. That said, he is undeniably a liability on defense. As a thought experiment I do wonder how this team would perform if you replace Mitchell with someone like Jaylen Brown.

Over the last 40+ years there have only been two NBA champions that had a starting back court 6'3 or under: the 2019 Raptors (Lowry and VanFleet) and the 1990 Pistons (Thomas and Dumars). For the Raptors, they paired their back court with tremendous size and defensive skill (Leonard, Siakam, Gasol). Assuming the Jazz are not going to trade Mitchell or Conley, I have to think that upgrading the forward positions for size/defensive/athleticism is the only other thing that makes sense. My guess is any change we do make this year will be a bench player, but I'm not certain that will be enough.
Not altering the closing lineup definitely has shortcomings, but I'd certainly say that if you were swapping Clarkson out for one of those defensive guys, that even the 20 minutes would have a lot of value toward the outcome. I could see if you had someone like Smart that Quin would use him situationally in closing. However, short of something drastic like that, I don't see Quin really making any of the kind of defensive/offensive substitutions in late games that we'd like. I would put Hart in that category, or anyone we could sign.

Regarding Lonzo, I'd be curious how much Chicago values him. Being second in their conference probably inflates that, though Lonzo's stats (on paper) aren't earth-shattering. I certainly had thoughts over the summer that Lonzo may be one of those guys who gives us enough in what we lack that what we lose in absolute talent and experience from Conley is compensated for. Purely on paper, Conley is too much to give to get back Lonzo and conversely giving up something like Clarkson and assets is too little. Theoretically you could do Conley to Philly, Simmons to Chicago, Lonzo to Utah. But I'd wonder if there's any package out there that could land you Lonzo without giving up Mike. If Lonzo were magically inserted into Clarkson's spot, that would give us quite a bit, and I'd say enough to put us over the top.
 
So all we need now is some wild scenario where Joe and Royce are the primary moving pieces in a deal that nets us someone like a Barnes or a Grant. It’ll have to be wild AF. Three or four teams. And some black magic. And a serious mortgage on our future.
Send out some combo of (but not necessarily all of) JC, Joe, Royce and measly assets for Lonzo in some 4-team trade.
 
So all we need now is some wild scenario where Joe and Royce are the primary moving pieces in a deal that nets us someone like a Barnes or a Grant. It’ll have to be wild AF. Three or four teams. And some black magic. And a serious mortgage on our future.
So Zach Lowe mentioned us on his pod with Van Gundy with regard to Grant. The package was Joe, Butler and a pick… Joe could go to Cleveland or Boston or some other team for some additional expirings and some second round picks to maybe even the deal out. I think they should do better than that for Grant.

So maybe a three team deal with Cleveland getting Ingles, Detroit gets Sexton, Butler, and a pick. I don’t think Cleveland wants to pay Sexton and Detroit gets his restricted right???? IDK on any good deal you have to squint a little but sometimes weird deals happen.

I don’t think we can get Barnes. There is just a lot of smoke around an Ingles deal and Ainge may be the bad guy that stands up to Quin.
 
If Ingles is gone the Jazz are probably the worst passing team in the NBA.
I watched Boston last night and I have a hard time believing we’d be worse than them.

He is such a good “fill in the gaps guy” there are times when he just doesn’t have the athleticism or energy to compete like we need.
 
Let the Lonzo Ball trade machine era commence...


Ainge can clear the deck of a number of DL prospects while bringing back one.
 
So Zach Lowe mentioned us on his pod with Van Gundy with regard to Grant. The package was Joe, Butler and a pick… Joe could go to Cleveland or Boston or some other team for some additional expirings and some second round picks to maybe even the deal out. I think they should do better than that for Grant.

So maybe a three team deal with Cleveland getting Ingles, Detroit gets Sexton, Butler, and a pick. I don’t think Cleveland wants to pay Sexton and Detroit gets his restricted right???? IDK on any good deal you have to squint a little but sometimes weird deals happen.

I don’t think we can get Barnes. There is just a lot of smoke around an Ingles deal and Ainge may be the bad guy that stands up to Quin.

The Jazz need to ask themselves how much they really value Royce O'Neale. He gets praised because he doesn't take shots away from other guys, and he's a tough defender against certain forward matchups. But he isn't irreplaceable by any means. Royce + Joe + FRP might get some traction, since either player could then be flipped for another pick.

If the Jazz upgraded Royce with Harrison Barnes, I think that would put them in the Finals. They'd be adding rebounds and offense, while maintaining or improving their defense. Rudy Gay is also capable of picking up a few extra minutes if need be and Trent Forrest can continue to play some minutes against bigger guards. Paschall is also fine for a 9th or 10th guy.

I think Barnes is the obvious guy for the Jazz to go after. He's more skilled offensively than Jerami Grant, he'd be able to move the ball in Quin's system, and he's also a better rebounder than Grant. A lineup with Conley/Mitchell/Bogey/Barnes/Gobert and Clarkson/Gay/Whiteside off the bench is really solid and borderline unguardable.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3ubbhff
 
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Let the Lonzo Ball trade machine era commence...


Ainge can clear the deck of a number of DL prospects while bringing back one.
Lonzo ain’t available… that ship has sailed. Have to look at teams that want to pivot and hope you can get 1.25 on the dollar or give the future stuff for the win now stuff.
 
The Jazz need to ask themselves how much they really value Royce O'Neale. He gets praised because he doesn't take shots away from other guys, and he's a tough defender against certain forward matchups. But he isn't irreplaceable by any means. Royce + Joe + FRP might get some traction, since either player could then be flipped for another pick.

If the Jazz upgraded Royce with Harrison Barnes, I think that would put them in the Finals. They'd be adding rebounds and offense, while maintaining or improving their defense. Rudy Gay is also capable of picking up a few extra minutes if need be and Trent Forrest can continue to play some minutes against bigger guards. Paschall is also fine for a 9th or 10th guy.

I think Barnes is the obvious guy for the Jazz to go after. He's more skilled offensively than Jerami Grant, he'd be able to move the ball in Quin's system, and he's also a better rebounder than Grant. A lineup with Conley/Mitchell/Bogey/Barnes/Gobert and Clarkson/Gay/Whiteside off the bench is really solid and borderline unguardable.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3ubbhff
Except you didn’t just upgrade Royce with Barnes. You weakened our bench, too, because Joe is gone in the deal.
 
Any Joe deal that doesn’t address the loss of passing/playmaking could seriously backfire. You trade Royce and Joe for a dude that requires shots to be happy and that could implode the team, IMO. There are only so many shots, and trading the two most unselfish players on the team could be a problem.
 
Any Joe deal that doesn’t address the loss of passing/playmaking could seriously backfire. You trade Royce and Joe for a dude that requires shots to be happy and that could implode the team, IMO. There are only so many shots, and trading the two most unselfish players on the team could be a problem.
Totally agree. I might even go one step further and say that the rest of the team seems particularly prone (to me at least) for backfiring like you’re describing.

The stinkiest problems with this team have been ego-charged: meltdowns or letting focus drift due to All-Star ****, DL vs Q (the repercussions of which are masssssssive), etc.

It appears to me that we need all the glue we can get.
 
Trading Joe is a luxury that could be afforded by the hypothetical scenario where you've got a PG who can shoot and distribute that you've been developing all year after being the college player of the year.
 
Here is a name to watch: Jordan Crawford. He applied to be put in the GLeague player pool and Ainge acquired him once for a playoff run in Boston. He averaged 12.2 ppg in 281 NBA games and has averaged 23.4 ppg in overseas leagues. He was a first round pick in the Hayward Favors draft.
 
Trading Joe is a luxury that could be afforded by the hypothetical scenario where you've got a PG who can shoot and distribute that you've been developing all year after being the college player of the year.

What would be?
Was supposed to be a reply to your first message about developing that point guard.
 
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