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Trade deadline discussion

Handlogten's Heros said:
I had major Clips series flashbacks tonight… those dudes were soooooo open.

Problem is I think we have such limited trade assets and the changes we need are pretty drastic so I think any move we make is more likely to mess us up. It’s personnel… it’s system… it’s likely to need a new coaching voice… maybe not head coach but a high level assistant.

We got problems.
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I don’t think system is saving this team. Not soon enough anyways. Even if Quin is guilty for molding these defensive habits…we’re too far gone.

I’ve never been one of those guys who talks about needing tough guys or whatever…but I do think getting a player who is a grinder will go a long way. We definitely need some outside influence on this team. Even if we had someone like EG….he’s not a superstar defender…but that guy is tough as hell when it’s time to compete so hopefully that rubs off on guys. Mike, Bogey, Gay, and Joe are all good vets. But they’re also all geezers and can’t bring the toughness to a team anymore.

Rudy alone isn’t enough on the court, but off the court as well. His mentality towards the game needs to be majority. Need that special Heat culture where Butler was welcomed. Instead we have that Timberwolves culture where a Rudy/Butler type obsession is seen as a distraction or too demanding.
 
KqWIN said:
It’s been long overdue. As bad as we’ve been lately, we we’re even worse in the playoffs the past two seasons. This should surprise no one. We should have been more aggressive during the summer where there were more options.
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nah, just draft smarter.

we could have gotten any one of Dort, Mcdaniels, Bane and Herb Jones on this roster, or even all of them.

instead, we are left with Doke and ashes of the picks we burnt to get rid of Oni, matt Thomas, Bradley, Rayjon Tucker, etc.
 
jom2003 said:
nah, just draft smarter.

we could have gotten any one of Dort, Mcdaniels, Bane and Herb Jones on this roster, or even all of them.

instead, we are left with Doke and ashes of the picks we burnt to get rid of Oni, matt Thomas, Bradley, Rayjon Tucker, etc.
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No one is going to bat 100% on draft picks. It’s a crap shoot and the Jazz have done very well there as a whole.

But anyone with a pulse should have been able to watch our playoff defense and identify it as a problem. If you were looking to just solve it with late first and second round picks in the draft, you weren’t taking it seriously enough.
 
KqWIN said:
I don’t think system is saving this team. Not soon enough anyways. Even if Quin is guilty for molding these defensive habits…we’re too far gone.

I’ve never been one of those guys who talks about needing tough guys or whatever…but I do think getting a player who is a grinder will go a long way. We definitely need some outside influence on this team. Even if we had someone like EG….he’s not a superstar defender…but that guy is tough as hell when it’s time to compete so hopefully that rubs off on guys. Mike, Bogey, Gay, and Joe are all good vets. But they’re also all geezers and can’t bring the toughness to a team anymore.

Rudy alone isn’t enough on the court, but off the court as well. His mentality towards the game needs to be majority. Need that special Heat culture where Butler was welcomed. Instead we have that Timberwolves culture where a Rudy/Butler type obsession is seen as a distraction or too demanding.
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Even the quote from Donovan is telling… essentially when Rudy is gone… we have to play defense… we can do it but we don’t all the time.

How about you do it ll the time… or as much as possible… even if Rudy is here.
 
The Fresh Prince said:
That rim protection would look sexy though. Maybe you look at this if you move Clarkson and additional pieces for someone to put beside Conley.

One thing I have against Davis is he doesn't always use his size to his advantage. He shoots a lot of jumpers.

I'd rather have Zion, but he's injury prone too.

What do you think about Ingram?
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I wouldn't trade for Zion.

I like Ingram, but I wouldn't trade Don for him. If you put Ingram and Don together with good defenders, they would be lethal. Both can defend but have to carry so much offense. Together would bring out the best in them.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Hearsky said:
You got yourself a little sneak peak of the Jazz without Rudy. But, DM got his 31 pts on -22 +/- so it's all good.
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That's out of context. My vision of life after Rudy comes with two very important things:
- assets for Rudy
- a change in how we play

We do everything on both ends built around Rudy. It's the only way Quin knows how to coach. Of course we struggle when he's out. We are built one way. It's why we force feed centers on our roster to hope to mimic Rudy when he sits.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
KqWIN said:
No one is going to bat 100% on draft picks. It’s a crap shoot and the Jazz have done very well there as a whole.

But anyone with a pulse should have been able to watch our playoff defense and identify it as a problem. If you were looking to just solve it with late first and second round picks in the draft, you weren’t taking it seriously enough.
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dude, we had like 2 good picks in the last 12 years... DM and Rudy. that's it. Our third best pick is already Rodney Hood, who's barely surviving on min deals. We had like what, seven lottery picks over that span? just compare that to other teams, especially the ones that are notorious for drafting like Minny, Phoenix and Sacramento. i can tell you it's not good. not to mention our overall draft record in the second round......
 
jom2003 said:
dude, we had like 2 good picks in the last 12 years... DM and Rudy. that's it. Our third best pick is already Rodney Hood, who's barely surviving on min deals. We had like what, seven lottery picks over that span? just compare that to other teams, especially the ones that are notorious for drafting like Minny, Phoenix and Sacramento. i can tell you it's not good. not to mention our overall draft record in the second round......
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Well, Rudy and Mitchell account for a lot. How many teams are getting the value they bring with their own draft picks? Not too many. Nailing those picks cannot be taken for granted. Those two alone all but guarantee winning seasons for the better part of a decade and they are the tentpole, franchise players others sign up to play with.
 
Draft record back to 2009, 12 years, before trades is here.

Utah Jazz draft history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Best picks are definitely Rudy and Donovan; third best is absolutely Hayward.

Probably Alec Burks is 4th, I'd say, then maybe Hood. Josh Hart doesn't count because we traded him for Tony Bradley. Neither does Prince, who we traded for George Hill. Neither does Tyler Lydon, who we traded with Trey Lyles for Mitchell, which might be the greatest heist of the last ten years. And neither do Dieng or Shabazz Muhammad, whom we traded for Trey Burke; that's probably a wash.

If you eliminate those folks in favor of the players we traded for and Gobert, whose pick we bought, the Jazz made the following lottery picks since 2009.

2010: Gordon Hayward
2011: Kanter and Burks
2014: Exum
2015: Trey Lyles
2017: Mitchell

I'll say we batted .500. We got lottery quality out of three of those. Two are stars and Burks is legit starter. Kanter and Lyles are backups. Exum was a bust.

Overall on first round picks since 2009:

Maynor
Hayward
Kanter
Burks
Burke
Exum
Hood
Lyles
Mitchell
Gobert
Bradley
Allen
Dok


Rotation NBA players: 10/13 (cutting Maynor (who, in fairness, lasted five years), Exum, Dok. The rest are all, indisputably, right now in NBA rotations.)
Starter quality NBA players: 4.5/13, maybe?: Mitchell, Hayward, Gobert, Burks. Maybe Allen or Kanter or Hood; meh.
Star quality: 3/13.


My conclusion: not great lottery batting average, but not terrible overall.
 
the small combo of Mike and DM need to change. its a major trade we need to do. all other bench player trades will just get us another bench player that wont see starting and finishing minutes. minutes that matters. sad to say between the 2, id trade Mike. otherwise, first round exit
 
Agent#00 said:
the small combo of Mike and DM need to change. its a major trade we need to do. all other bench player trades will just get us another bench player that wont see starting and finishing minutes. minutes that matters. sad to say between the 2, id trade Mike. otherwise, first round exit
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I don't necessarily agree about trading Mike but I do agree something needs to change in our starting and closing lineup. Trading for 7th or 8th man just isn't going to move the needle enough. We need defensive help in our starting lineup.
 
Eastern Orthodoxy said:
Draft record back to 2009, 12 years, before trades is here.

Utah Jazz draft history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Best picks are definitely Rudy and Donovan; third best is absolutely Hayward.

Probably Alec Burks is 4th, I'd say, then maybe Hood. Josh Hart doesn't count because we traded him for Tony Bradley. Neither does Prince, who we traded for George Hill. Neither does Tyler Lydon, who we traded with Trey Lyles for Mitchell, which might be the greatest heist of the last ten years. And neither do Dieng or Shabazz Muhammad, whom we traded for Trey Burke; that's probably a wash.

If you eliminate those folks in favor of the players we traded for and Gobert, whose pick we bought, the Jazz made the following lottery picks since 2009.

2010: Gordon Hayward
2011: Kanter and Burks
2014: Exum
2015: Trey Lyles
2017: Mitchell

I'll say we batted .500. We got lottery quality out of three of those. Two are stars and Burks is legit starter. Kanter and Lyles are backups. Exum was a bust.

Overall on first round picks since 2009:

Maynor
Hayward
Kanter
Burks
Burke
Exum
Hood
Lyles
Mitchell
Gobert
Bradley
Allen
Dok


Rotation NBA players: 10/13 (cutting Maynor (who, in fairness, lasted five years), Exum, Dok. The rest are all, indisputably, right now in NBA rotations.)
Starter quality NBA players: 4.5/13, maybe?: Mitchell, Hayward, Gobert, Burks. Maybe Allen or Kanter or Hood; meh.
Star quality: 3/13.


My conclusion: not great lottery batting average, but not terrible overall.
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I was counting from 2011 but OK. Well first burks is not a legit starter. He only started less than 20% of the games in his career. He's starting for Knicks only because Kemba is sidelined by injuries. Kemba's had some issues with Thibs and got benched earlier. But when he's playing again he clearly shown he's the starter, and AB belongs to the bench. He's currently serving as the placeholder and will give the starting role back as soon as Kemba gets back. And guess how many game AB started for the Knicks last season when they didn't have Kemba? Five. That's neither "starter" nor "legit".

And Burke and Bradley are not in NBA rotations. I don't consider guys who get DNPs and only see minutes during garbage time or injuries as rotation players. Would you consider Butler and Doke as part of our rotation? Same for Kanter and Hood. Their days in the league are probably numbered.

As for our lottery hit rate, you forgot to count Burke from 2013. If you take out Haywood and count in Burke, that makes it 1/6, with DM being our only lottery hit. That's not good.
 
As for draft, I would also look at players draft position versus their actual performance. Like if you are to do a 2013 redraft, would you consider Burke the 9th best player in that draft class? Would you look back and see Lyles as the 12th best player out of that 2015 draft class?

If they perform far off their actual draft positions, they are busts.
 
Agent#00 said:
the small combo of Mike and DM need to change. its a major trade we need to do. all other bench player trades will just get us another bench player that wont see starting and finishing minutes. minutes that matters. sad to say between the 2, id trade Mike. otherwise, first round exit
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Conley is like Milwaukee's Bledsoe. They saw an opportunity to upgrade him to Jrue and pulled the trigger. Not sure if there would ever be an opportunity like that for us.
 
Jingled said:
I don't necessarily agree about trading Mike but I do agree something needs to change in our starting and closing lineup. Trading for 7th or 8th man just isn't going to move the needle enough. We need defensive help in our starting lineup.
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Same story I've been saying for years. This team has good talent, but it's not constructed well. It doesn't work together to make a title contending team.
The biggest issue is our starting line up. Jingled makes a good point. Getting a 7th or 8th man in the rotation aint going to cut it.

When we signed Conley we put ourselves in a bind. Mike, Don, Royce, Bogey, Gobert is not good enough to beat the Warriors or Suns.

Someone has to be upgraded. The line up is too small, and not athletic enough to win a chip. Royce is the weakest link, and playing way too much as is it.
We need a taller, stronger, bigger 3. Royce off the bench as a super energy sub is the best answer.

There are other options but the involve trading Bogey, or Mike and I don't see the front office doing that.
 
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