Voter Suppression and Why The Republicans Love It So Much?

[fishonjazz]

Why stop at the next election? If a group wants to look at the 1980 election and we still have the stuff lying around, what is the harm in it?

I can understand needing to keep some information secret for purposes of national security but everything else the government does should be wide open. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. If someone wants to check under every government rock, that is great. If a thousand people want to check under every government rock ten times each then it is even better.

One has to keep in mind that double checking vote totals does nothing when it comes to naming the President. The United States is not a democracy. It is a republic. All an audit does is examine the processes for which improvements can be made for future votes.

Also, this audit wasn't about examining the process for which improvements can be made for future votes. This audit was for the "stop the steal" folks who wanted desperately to make everyone see that the democrats are evil and stole the election from poor old innocent donald trump.
If trump simply accepted defeat, this audit doesn't happen. If trump won the election, this audit doesn't happen.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The harm is obvious. If people are doubting results then they are getting upset and doubting our whole political system. Why does that matter? Well 1-6-21 is why.

You think 1-6-21 happened because too many audits were allowed? I don't subscribe to that view.

This audit was for the "stop the steal" folks who wanted desperately to make everyone see that the democrats are evil and stole the election from poor old innocent donald trump.

Yup, and it was allowed to proceed. It concluded that Biden won Maricopa County exactly as was announced. That it was an adversarial audit staffed by Trump supporters and financed by Trump supporters is exactly why it should move public opinion in the direction of believing the system works and we should want more, not less of that.

And we are a democracy. Just because you hate that word doesn't change the fact that we are a democracy.

I don't hate the word but I'm not a fan of the misuse of the word. There is a difference between voting and democracy. The United States is a republic, yet we vote. The UK is a constitutional monarchy with an actual queen, and they vote. Iran is a theocracy with a Supreme Council of clerics that put forth a slate of candidates acceptable to Allah, and the Iranians vote. Iraq in 2002 was a dictatorship when Iraqis cast votes for Saddam Hussein. Casting votes and having a democracy are not the same thing.

 

[The Thriller]

Also, this audit wasn't about examining the process for which improvements can be made for future votes. This audit was for the "stop the steal" folks who wanted desperately to make everyone see that the democrats are evil and stole the election from poor old innocent donald trump.
If trump simply accepted defeat, this audit doesn't happen. If trump won the election, this audit doesn't happen.

Very good point. If Trump had graciously accepted defeat, none of these audits would’ve occurred and fewer of these voter suppression bills would have been passed. Instead, we have one party completely spitting on our democracy and working to overturn future elections. It’s a completely authoritarian move that puts American democracy at stake.

 

[fishonjazz]

You think 1-6-21 happened because too many audits were allowed? I don't subscribe to that view.

Yup, and it was allowed to proceed. It concluded that Biden won Maricopa County exactly as was announced. That it was an adversarial audit staffed by Trump supporters and financed by Trump supporters is exactly why it should move public opinion in the direction of believing the system works and we should want more, not less of that.

I don't hate the word but I'm not a fan of the misuse of the word. There is a difference between voting and democracy. The United States is a republic, yet we vote. The UK is a constitutional monarchy with an actual queen, and they vote. Iran is a theocracy with a Supreme Council of clerics that put forth a slate of candidates acceptable to Allah, and the Iranians vote. Iraq in 2002 was a dictatorship when Iraqis cast votes for Saddam Hussein. Casting votes and having a democracy are not the same thing.

1-6-21 happened because people didn't trust the results of the election. This audit happened for the same reason. They are connected in that way. When you start to try to cast doubt upon election results like was done with this election then 1-6-21 happens.
Did cyber ninjas do some previous audits in previous elections?

Casting votes and having a democracy actually are the same thing. A democracy is a country where the people choose their government. In America we choose our government. So does the UK and so does Iran. All three countries are a democracy. So are many other countries.


Is the United States of America a democracy?


The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. ... Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democracy and the UK Parliament​

The United Kingdom (UK) is a democracy. A democracy is a country where the people choose their government.




Iran has a democratically elected president, a parliament (or Majlis), an Assembly of Experts (which elects the supreme leader), and local councils.

 

[fishonjazz]

I googled the definition of democracy. Here are some of the responses:
A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

A democracy is a system where people can change their rulers in a peaceful manner and the government is given the right to rule because the people say it may.

A democracy means rule by the people. The name is used for different forms of government, where the people can take part in the decisions that affect the way their community is run. ... The people elect their leaders. These leaders take this decision about laws. This is commonly called representative democracy.

U.S. president Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) defined democracy as: «Government of the people, by the people, for the people» Democracy is by far the most challenging form of government - both for politicians and for the people. The term democracy comes from the Greek language and means "rule by the (simple) people".

What are the 7 principles of democracy?
These seven principles include: checks and balances, federalism, individual rights, limited government, popular sovereignty, republicanism, and separation of powers.


In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."

What are some examples of democracy?
The United States and Nigeria are examples of presidential democracies. The executive branch includes the president and his cabinet. Along with the judicial and legislative branch, the three branches of government work to keep checks and balances.

Sorry AI, looks like that all describes the United states of america.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

1-6-21 happened because people didn't trust the results of the election. This audit happened for the same reason. They are connected in that way. When you start to try to cast doubt upon election results like was done with this election then 1-6-21 happens.

I'm not following your chain of logic. What you are saying is the equivalent of car accidents are caused by snowy roads. Because of snowy roads, some people want to pay for and install snow tires. Snow tires and car accidents are connected in that way therefor we should discourage the use of snow tires because we don't want snowy roads.

Casting votes and having a democracy actually are the same thing.

Democracy is a system of government. It is a system of government the United States does not have. We do not vote for Supreme Court justices. We do not vote for generals of our military or most of the leadership positions in the various bureaucratic departments. Even our President is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. We have had many recent US Presidents who lost the popular vote but it didn't matter because the Electoral College decides the President. The people didn't even get to vote for their Senators until the 17th Amendment was passed.

Voting is simply making your voice heard in a way that can be tabulated. We vote for winners of reality TV shows. Having the power to voice an opinion on any particular subject is very different from having the power to command a government. The former is voting. The latter is democracy.

Here, citizens vote for their government officials.

Do they? Take a rough guess: How many officials are there employed in our government in total? That title encompasses every employee of the government making over $20k (or over $15k if employed by the House or Senate).

In reality, you have absolutely no power over nearly every part of our government. The second syllable of democracy comes from the Greek word "kratia" which translates to power or authority. Without power or authority over nearly every part of our government, there is no democracy. It is just voting and it is venting. It is a pressure release valve to prevent a population from feeling like they have no other way of having their voices heard than to commit acts of violence. I suppose I should have offered up the blue pill to give you an out, but voting in an election and contacting elected officials keeps you pacified, not empowered. I'm not saying that pacification is a bad thing. Revolutions and Civil Wars are awful. That said, the power you think you have is an illusion, and so is democracy in the United States. Like it or not, you live in a republic. I think that is a very good thing.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

A system of government by the whole population

Yup.

A democracy means rule by the people.

Nailed it.

The term democracy comes from the Greek language and means "rule by the (simple) people".

Correct again.

In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them"

Totally agree.

@fishonjazz, you're the people. Do you rule us? Do you have supreme power vested in you? Nope, because you live in a republic and not a democracy.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm not following your chain of logic. What you are saying is the equivalent of car accidents are caused by snowy roads. Because of snowy roads, some people want to pay for and install snow tires. Snow tires and car accidents are connected in that way therefor we should discourage the use of snow tires because we don't want snowy roads.

Democracy is a system of government. It is a system of government the United States does not have. We do not vote for Supreme Court justices. We do not vote for generals of our military or most of the leadership positions in the various bureaucratic departments. Even our President is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. We have had many recent US Presidents who lost the popular vote but it didn't matter because the Electoral College decides the President. The people didn't even get to vote for their Senators until the 17th Amendment was passed.

Voting is simply making your voice heard in a way that can be tabulated. We vote for winners of reality TV shows. Having the power to voice an opinion on any particular subject is very different from having the power to command a government. The former is voting. The latter is democracy.

Do they? Take a rough guess: How many officials are there employed in our government in total? That title encompasses every employee of the government making over $20k (or over $15k if employed by the House or Senate).

In reality, you have absolutely no power over nearly every part of our government. The second syllable of democracy comes from the Greek word "kratia" which translates to power or authority. Without power or authority over nearly every part of our government, there is no democracy. It is just voting and it is venting. It is a pressure release valve to prevent a population from feeling like they have no other way of having their voices heard than to commit acts of violence. I suppose I should have offered up the blue pill to give you an out, but voting in an election and contacting elected officials keeps you pacified, not empowered. I'm not saying that pacification is a bad thing. Revolutions and Civil Wars are awful. That said, the power you think you have is an illusion, and so is democracy in the United States. Like it or not, you live in a republic. I think that is a very good thing.

Sorry AI, I'm siding with honest Abraham Lincoln over you on this one. Oh and Google and the dictionary and pretty much everyone.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yup.

Nailed it.

Correct again.

Totally agree.

@fishonjazz, you're the people. Do you rule us? Do you have supreme power vested in you? Nope, because you live in a republic and not a democracy.

The people, not person. So yes, I'm one of the people who rule this country. I ****ing rule!

 

[The Thriller]

Does mitt Romney not know what form of government we have?

“Counting every vote is at the heart of democracy,” Romney said on Thursday. “That process is often long, and for those running, frustrating. The votes will be counted. If there are irregularities alleged, they will be investigated and ultimately resolved in the courts. Have faith in democracy, in our constitution and in the American people.”

Mitt Romney scolds Trump for damaging democracy by making claims that election was rigged

Sen. Mitt Romney — the 2012 Republican presidential nominee — on Friday said President Donald Trump’s attacks on election results are damaging freedom around the world.

www.sltrib.com

Does former president obama not know?

Does former President George W Bush not know what kind of government we have?

Freedom and Democracy | George W. Bush Presidential Center

www.bushcenter.org

how about former president clinton?

President Clinton to speak on the future of U.S. democracy | Cornell Chronicle

President Bill Clinton will participate in a virtual conversation about strengthening America's democratic norms for future generations on March 18, launching the new Milstein Democracy Forum Speaker Series.

news.cornell.edu

For those arguing that we aren’t a democracy, what's the difference between a direct democracy, representative democracy, and republic? In particular, the representative democracy and republic?

 

[The Thriller]

Oh weird how the biggest proponents of the big lie still aren’t convinced that Trump lost Arizona. Also, does Gosar have Parkinsons?

 

[TheGoldStandard]

**** your facts you liberal weenie. We have not begun to fight!

Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Did you guys forget about all of the fraud in voting and recounting. Fraud! Recount the recount! Let Trump's team lead the recount if you want proper results. Independence in recounts is obviously a flawed approach.

Donald Trump was in Home Alone 2. Biden wasn't. Yet you believe Biden, the non-movie star somehow got more votes in Arizona, the movie capitol of the Southwest?

The truth is Trump was a Democrat for years and clearly the crazy Republican show is an act to bring down the party.

I'm not following your chain of logic. What you are saying is the equivalent of car accidents are caused by snowy roads. Because of snowy roads, some people want to pay for and install snow tires. Snow tires and car accidents are connected in that way therefor we should discourage the use of snow tires because we don't want snowy roads.

Democracy is a system of government. It is a system of government the United States does not have. We do not vote for Supreme Court justices. We do not vote for generals of our military or most of the leadership positions in the various bureaucratic departments. Even our President is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. We have had many recent US Presidents who lost the popular vote but it didn't matter because the Electoral College decides the President. The people didn't even get to vote for their Senators until the 17th Amendment was passed.

Voting is simply making your voice heard in a way that can be tabulated. We vote for winners of reality TV shows. Having the power to voice an opinion on any particular subject is very different from having the power to command a government. The former is voting. The latter is democracy.

Do they? Take a rough guess: How many officials are there employed in our government in total? That title encompasses every employee of the government making over $20k (or over $15k if employed by the House or Senate).

In reality, you have absolutely no power over nearly every part of our government. The second syllable of democracy comes from the Greek word "kratia" which translates to power or authority. Without power or authority over nearly every part of our government, there is no democracy. It is just voting and it is venting. It is a pressure release valve to prevent a population from feeling like they have no other way of having their voices heard than to commit acts of violence. I suppose I should have offered up the blue pill to give you an out, but voting in an election and contacting elected officials keeps you pacified, not empowered. I'm not saying that pacification is a bad thing. Revolutions and Civil Wars are awful. That said, the power you think you have is an illusion, and so is democracy in the United States. Like it or not, you live in a republic. I think that is a very good thing.

I thought we were an autonomous collective.

 

[fishonjazz]

Does mitt Romney not know what form of government we have?

Mitt Romney scolds Trump for damaging democracy by making claims that election was rigged

Sen. Mitt Romney — the 2012 Republican presidential nominee — on Friday said President Donald Trump’s attacks on election results are damaging freedom around the world.

www.sltrib.com

Does former president obama not know?

Does former President George W Bush not know what kind of government we have?

Freedom and Democracy | George W. Bush Presidential Center

www.bushcenter.org

how about former president clinton?

President Clinton to speak on the future of U.S. democracy | Cornell Chronicle

President Bill Clinton will participate in a virtual conversation about strengthening America's democratic norms for future generations on March 18, launching the new Milstein Democracy Forum Speaker Series.

news.cornell.edu

For those arguing that we aren’t a democracy, what's the difference between a direct democracy, representative democracy, and republic? In particular, the representative democracy and republic?

Romney, bush, clinton, lincoln, the dictionary...... none of them know anything about anything.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yup.

Nailed it.

Correct again.

Totally agree.

@fishonjazz, you're the people. Do you rule us? Do you have supreme power vested in you? Nope, because you live in a republic and not a democracy.

By the way, you removed a ton of what I posted to make it fit your narrative.
You put this: In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them"

What I actually posted was: In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."

You put: A democracy means rule by the people.

What I actually posted was: A democracy means rule by the people. The name is used for different forms of government, where the people can take part in the decisions that affect the way their community is run. ... The people elect their leaders. These leaders take this decision about laws. This is commonly called representative democracy.

and so on and so forth over and over. Left out lots of important parts. Nice try though.

 

[The Thriller]

By the way, you removed a ton of what I posted to make it fit your narrative.
You put this: In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them"

What I actually posted was: In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."

You put: A democracy means rule by the people.

What I actually posted was: A democracy means rule by the people. The name is used for different forms of government, where the people can take part in the decisions that affect the way their community is run. ... The people elect their leaders. These leaders take this decision about laws. This is commonly called representative democracy.

and so on and so forth over and over. Left out lots of important parts. Nice try though.

He’s clearly conflating “democracy” with “direct democracy.”

No, we aren’t a direct democracy. No one today makes the case that we are.

When the founders established the government, they called us a republic because in their day a democracy meant “direct democracy.” We couldn’t be a direct democracy because women, blacks, and non-land owning white males couldn’t vote or run for political office. What they essentially established (by today’s standards) was an oligarchy, a small minority of wealthy land owning white males who could vote and hold office. Which was progress for back then! Direct democracies can’t exist today let alone 200+ years ago when voting and communication took weeks. So an oligarchy with the potential to become a republic/representative democracy was the best they could offer. Things have obviously changed since 1789. Blacks gained freedom and the right to vote, women gained the right to vote, property requirements ceased, poll and literacy tests have ended (sort of), and the voting age has changed.

Today, we don’t understand democracy to be synonymous with “direct democracy.” We recognize democracy to be synonymous with republics/representative democracies. When we entered WWI, Pres wilson didn’t say, “we’re fighting to make the world safe for republics.” When we invaded iraq we didn’t go there to “establish a republic.”

Those who argue about the republic v democracy thing at best show an incredible ignorance about forms of government. And at worse are (usually) white supremacists who feel like their minority rule should rule over the majority in a type of apartheid state. They’re usually those who are angry at our pluralistic and diverse society and want to turn the clock back.

I wish we spent more time solving the problems of our country instead of justifying a tone deaf and backwards ideology. Instead of ignoring the majority, I think political parties and leaders could benefit by listening to them. Imagine how different the Republican Party would be if they actually had to compete for minority/women/LGBT/urban votes? Imagine how different the political candidates would’ve been in 2016 and 2020 if they had to win the popular vote to win the presidency?

Minority rights are already (overly) protected by the EC and Senate. These “protections” are already the major source of contention in our country. It’s what’s exacerbating the gridlock in DC. We don’t need to strengthen minority rights at the expense of the majority. At some point we need to let the majority govern and the minority party then will need to adjust to compete for the majority vote. Thats how representative democracies/republics are supposed to function. Letting the minority impede the progress of the country is an oligarchy. It’s exactly why the founding fathers got rid of the articles of confederation in favor of our current constitution.

 

[fishonjazz]

He’s clearly conflating “democracy” with “direct democracy.”

No, we aren’t a direct democracy. No one today makes the case that we are.

When the founders established the government, they called us a republic because in their day a democracy meant “direct democracy.” We couldn’t be a direct democracy because women, blacks, and non-land owning white males couldn’t vote or run for political office. What they essentially established was an oligarchy, a small minority of wealthy land owning white males who could vote and hold office. Which was progress for back then! Direct democracies can’t exist today let alone 200+ years ago when voting and communication took weeks. So an oligarchy with the potential to become a republic/representative democracy was the best they could offer. Things have obviously changed since 1789. Blacks gained freedom and the right to vote, women gained the right to vote, property requirements ceased, poll and literacy tests have ended (sort of), and the voting age has changed.

But today, we don’t understand democracy to be synonymous with “direct democracy.” We recognize democracy to be synonymous with republics/representative democracies. When we entered WWI, Pres wilson didn’t say, “we’re fighting to make the world safe for republics.” When we invaded iraq we didn’t go there to “establish a republic.”

Those who argue about the republic v democracy thing at best show an incredible ignorance about forms of government. And at worse are (usually) white supremacists who feel like their minority rule should rule over the majority in a type of apartheid state. They’re usually those who angry at our pluralistic and diverse society and are attempting to justify voter suppression laws.

I wish we spent more time solving the problems of our country instead of justifying a tone deaf and backwards ideology. Instead of ignoring the majority, I think political parties and leaders could benefit by listening to them. Minority rights are already (overly) protected by the EC and Senate. These “protections” are already the major source of contention in our country. We don’t need to strengthen minority rights at the expense of the majority. At some point we need to let the majority govern and the minority party then will need to adjust to compete for the majority vote. Thats how representative democracies/republics are supposed to function. Letting the minority impede the progress of the country is an oligarchy.

Lol at him conflating democracy with direct democracy. Now I understand why his argument seemed so stupid and wrong. He was saying that we aren't a direct democracy. Well duh. Like is that even possible? Does it even exist anywhere?
Silly argument

 

[Al-O-Meter]

For those arguing that we aren’t a democracy, what's the difference between a direct democracy, representative democracy, and republic? In particular, the representative democracy and republic?

The difference between a representative democracy and republic is the primacy of a constitution or similar governing document. In a direct democracy, the people are the supreme power. In a representative democracy, the people elect representatives who exercise supreme power on the electorates behalf. In a republic, what the people or the people's representatives can do is limited by a governing document which itself has supreme power.

 

[The Thriller]

Lol at him conflating democracy with direct democracy. Now I understand why his argument seemed so stupid and wrong. He was saying that we aren't a direct democracy. Well duh. Like is that even possible? Does it even exist anywhere?
Silly argument

Yep. That’s exactly what he’s doing. I think he saw someone on Facebook and is now arguing this stupid point without thinking it through. As you did, Google the definitions. Yep, looks like America.

You’re right, it’s a bad argument to make. Direct democracies don’t exist, would be terrible, and to my knowledge, no one is calling for one.

What I think most people want, is to be able to vote for their leaders and for the will of the majority to be executed. If the minority doesn’t like that? Come up with better solutions/ideas. I don’t think Democrats have all the answers. Biden certainly wasn’t my top choice. Id love for Republicans to engage in some helpful manner to the political discourse of our country. How cool would it be to see both parties working honestly and constructively to try and solve issues?

Instead, Republicana are calling for more audits, threatening to cause another recession with the debt ceiling, and claiming that whites are being replaced by immigrants.


Is this helpful?

 

[The Thriller]

I googled the definition of democracy. Here are some of the responses:
A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

A democracy is a system where people can change their rulers in a peaceful manner and the government is given the right to rule because the people say it may.

A democracy means rule by the people. The name is used for different forms of government, where the people can take part in the decisions that affect the way their community is run. ... The people elect their leaders. These leaders take this decision about laws. This is commonly called representative democracy.

U.S. president Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) defined democracy as: «Government of the people, by the people, for the people» Democracy is by far the most challenging form of government - both for politicians and for the people. The term democracy comes from the Greek language and means "rule by the (simple) people".

What are the 7 principles of democracy?
These seven principles include: checks and balances, federalism, individual rights, limited government, popular sovereignty, republicanism, and separation of powers.


In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."

What are some examples of democracy?
The United States and Nigeria are examples of presidential democracies. The executive branch includes the president and his cabinet. Along with the judicial and legislative branch, the three branches of government work to keep checks and balances.

Sorry AI, looks like that all describes the United states of america.

For someone not really into politics, this is a hell of a post.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Now I understand why his argument seemed so stupid and wrong.

I suppose it is as stupid and wrong as the US Constitution, Article 4, Section 4, Clause 1 which says in no uncertain terms what kind of government we have. The word democracy doesn't appear a single time in the US Constitution, but it does appear in Federalist 10 written by the same guy who wrote the US Constitution to explain why the US wasn't a direct or representative democracy but was in fact a republic.

No offense intended @fishonjazz, but I'm going to make a guess that you've never taken a Political Science class.