Why can't people who leave the LDS church move on?

[Chad Feldheimer]

This is me. I left a long time ago. I'll still defend the church to some degree, even though I'm not a part of it.
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The only problem I now have is my own family. After 20+ years of not going and not having anything to do with the church I still have to avoid certain topics around my parents because they are still trying to bring me back and get my wife to join (who is catholic by birth but treats her ex-church like I do). It would have been easier for me to forget it and move on had they left me alone about it. But a lot of families in the LDS faith see it as their failure if their children don't follow their beliefs.
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I had no desire to hate on their religion or their faith but they made that hard by continuing with pressure to come back. I occasionally in my younger days attacked their religion just to get them to drop it for a while. I did not nor do have any special hate for the LDS just a general non-interest until someone puts pressure on me to join. That holds true with any religion though.

And being smothered with the culture/belief from the day you are born. Blessing, Sunday school, only play with other Mormon kids, baptism, church 3 hours on Sunday, youth activity nights etc. Once they start deciding that that might not be the life for them they get a lot of pressure from family, church members & "friends".

 

[Dr. Jones]

In response to gregbroncs..

If your parents truly believe their faith (and I obviously assume they do) and they believe in eternal life with a Heavenly Father, I would expect no less from parents that love you. I'm fairly certain you don't blame them for doing it as much as you just find it a nuisance and a topic you would simply rather to avoid.

Having said that, the LDS religion, much more so than any I've encountered that is Christ centered, put an extreme emphasis on the church itself. Meaning, as a Christian myself, I of course want my kids to make it to Heaven. However, it's about Jesus to me... not Baptist or southern Baptist, or Assembly of God or whatever denomination.

I know the LDS believe the 'one true church' stuff, but right or wrong, it makes the "come back to church" thing much more over-bearing.
I want my kids to come to Christ and let He and they sort things out. I'm not concerned about which building they attend, what days of tge week they do what, or that they have to subscribe to a long list of ordinances set out by a long list of denomination-specific prophets.

Not one word of that was a bash, was just trying to paint (albeit with a broad brush) a picture as to why it's more of a pain to leave (and be summoner back to) a very legalistic religious belief system.

 

[LogGrad98]

This is me. I left a long time ago. I'll still defend the church to some degree, even though I'm not a part of it.
.
The only problem I now have is my own family. After 20+ years of not going and not having anything to do with the church I still have to avoid certain topics around my parents because they are still trying to bring me back and get my wife to join (who is catholic by birth but treats her ex-church like I do). It would have been easier for me to forget it and move on had they left me alone about it. But a lot of families in the LDS faith see it as their failure if their children don't follow their beliefs.
.
I had no desire to hate on their religion or their faith but they made that hard by continuing with pressure to come back. I occasionally in my younger days attacked their religion just to get them to drop it for a while. I did not nor do have any special hate for the LDS just a general non-interest until someone puts pressure on me to join. That holds true with any religion though.

And being smothered with the culture/belief from the day you are born. Blessing, Sunday school, only play with other Mormon kids, baptism, church 3 hours on Sunday, youth activity nights etc. Once they start deciding that that might not be the life for them they get a lot of pressure from family, church members & "friends".

This is a tough thing, as deeply ingrained as the mormon religion is into our families. We are dealing with a similar situation right now, but in reverse, I guess you might say.

My oldest son is 20. After hemming and hawing about it for a year and a half he didn't go on a mission. He stopped going to church once he got out on his own, and has recently moved in with his girlfriend, who has separated from her husband but whose divorce is not yet finalized. Now she is pregnant. He pays lip service to the church, and claims he goes now and then, but it is all a smoke screen so we don't come down on him, which we haven't done.

And so we (my wife more than me) struggle with the idea that somehow we failed him. He didn't get something he needed or in some other way we screwed up. But I think that is a cultural thing, and partially based in the dogma of the religion, that we fail our children and in our personal development if our kids don't make the "right" choices, so it cuts close to home in more ways than one, and that attitude is one reason I have distanced myself somewhat from the religion over the years.

When people hear we have a 20-y.o. son, they ask when he gets home from his mission. When we tell them he isn't on a mission we get the whole "oh, well. that's um...well you know everyone has...ok...um <awkward laughter and throat clearing> hey look, someone brought jello!" No one knows what to saw and the sideways glances are inevitable. It bothers my wife a lot. I let it mostly roll off, but largely because I already know the LDS church is one of the most judgemental groups (culturally) I have ever been associated with, so I expect it and just roll with it. But she feels like she failed as a parent, and the reactions she gets from church members reinforces those feelings of failure.

Our daughter who just turned 18 and graduated from High School this year was far more active than our son and has been talking about a mission for the past 2-3 years, ever since she went to EFY. That is, until her boyfriend of 2 years, who is going to BYU Idaho, decided he wasn't going on a mission because he doesn't know if he even believes in God and started pressuring her to come to BYU Idaho with him. She now wants to transfer there instead of go on her mission.

This has my wife in tears almost nightly. She feels like she is losing all of her kids. Granted, we have been far from perfect mormon parents, but we have always encouraged our kids to find out the truth for themselves. They have all read the BoM, most of them more than once. They all participated in all the youth activities, etc. We have been probably 75% active over our marriage, with the biggest drop-offs during 9:00 am block times as 9:00 am is TOO FREAKING EARLY FOR CHURCH. 11:00 is perfect.

We have tried to do the "right things" with probably an 60% rate of FHE and family prayer and scripture study. Regular monthly date-nights with each kid we go over their goals and what they want to do in their lives and stress the importance of mission and temple marriage, etc. Father's blessings and other blessings as the situation may warrant (illness, start of school year, tough time in kids life, etc.)

But in the end, no matter what you do, or don't do, they choose for themselves what they believe, and they will act on it as part of their own free agency. It is hard to get my wife to see this and recognize all she can do at this point is love them, provide wise and loving counsel, and accept them for who they are. So we try to teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Sounds good, but in this culture, where you know you are being talked about, and often looked down on, if your family doesn't meet the high requirements set forth by the unwritten rules of mormon societal norms, it doesn't hold a lot of water. The sins of the sons will be answered on the heads of the fathers, so to speak.

Is it really any wonder, in a culture with pressures like that, that is so all-pervasive, that when people do pry themselves away from it, depending on how deep they were in it to begin with, there is going to be bitterness and anger and lashing out, as it would feel like you are tearing yourself apart at the core, and the church would be to blame.

 

[Deleted member 848]

In response to gregbroncs..

If your parents truly believe their faith (and I obviously assume they do) and they believe in eternal life with a Heavenly Father, I would expect no less from parents that love you. I'm fairly certain you don't blame them for doing it as much as you just find it a nuisance and a topic you would simply rather to avoid.

Having said that, the LDS religion, much more so than any I've encountered that is Christ centered, put an extreme emphasis on the church itself. Meaning, as a Christian myself, I of course want my kids to make it to Heaven. However, it's about Jesus to me... not Baptist or southern Baptist, or Assembly of God or whatever denomination.

I know the LDS believe the 'one true church' stuff, but right or wrong, it makes the "come back to church" thing much more over-bearing.
I want my kids to come to Christ and let He and they sort things out. I'm not concerned about which building they attend, what days of tge week they do what, or that they have to subscribe to a long list of ordinances set out by a long list of denomination-specific prophets.

Not one word of that was a bash, was just trying to paint (albeit with a broad brush) a picture as to why it's more of a pain to leave (and be summoner back to) a very legalistic religious belief system.

Just like everything else in this world, there are tradeoffs. Having a highly structuralized, centralized central church that permeates much of a communities life keeps their beliefs fairly omnipresent, and encourages followers to obey them-- even to the extent where people behave they way they do 'because they're supposed to', without much after-thought.

The problem with every highly-structuralized community, is that the more something permeates your life, the harder it is to not have it at the forefront of your thoughts, and actions on a daily basis. What i mean by this, is if you're a mormon living in Utah County, the church becomes something that isn't left to the confines of your home. It becomes a culture. Families are placed in hierarchies, based on how "pure" they are. People who leave the church, or refuse to follow it, are generally looked upon negatively.


Personally, I think this is mostly a Utah thing (in terms of mormonism). It's very easy to get sucked into a culture when most of your town, city, or state is mormon. One of the most beautiful things about multiculturalism (or destructive-- depending on which way you approach it) is the trend of just having people from all sorts of faiths, cultures, ethnicities being hurled together into one spot. It fosters mutual appreciation, and manages to take a chunk out of the holier-than-thou attitudes to some extent. Of course, from a church-perspective, leaving a community where the majority is mormon could mean that their followers might 'deviate' from their perceived path to a higher degree.

/soapbox

 

[LogGrad98]

Just like everything else in this world, there are tradeoffs. Having a highly structuralized, centralized central church that permeates much of a communities life keeps their beliefs fairly omnipresent, and encourages followers to obey them-- even to the extent where people behave they way they do 'because they're supposed to', without much after-thought.

The problem with every highly-structuralized community, is that the more something permeates your life, the harder it is to not have it at the forefront of your thoughts, and actions on a daily basis. What i mean by this, is if you're a mormon living in Utah County, the church becomes something that isn't left to the confines of your home. It becomes a culture. Families are placed in hierarchies, based on how "pure" they are. People who leave the church, or refuse to follow it, are generally looked upon negatively.


Personally, I think this is mostly a Utah thing (in terms of mormonism). It's very easy to get sucked into a culture when most of your town, city, or state is mormon. One of the most beautiful things about multiculturalism (or destructive-- depending on which way you approach it) is the trend of just having people from all sorts of faiths, cultures, ethnicities being hurled together into one spot. It fosters mutual appreciation, and manages to take a chunk out of the holier-than-thou attitudes to some extent. Of course, from a church-perspective, leaving a community where the majority is mormon could mean that their followers might 'deviate' from their perceived path to a higher degree.

/soapbox

I have seen this just as strong outside of Utah, as the mormon communities outside of Utah tend to be much more tight-knit as they truly feel it is them against the world. In Utah it is just assumed that everyone else you meet is mormon, and so this attitude is not quite as strong, although it is more pervasive.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I have seen this just as strong outside of Utah, as the mormon communities outside of Utah tend to be much more tight-knit as they truly feel it is them against the world. In Utah it is just assumed that everyone else you meet is mormon, and so this attitude is not quite as strong, although it is more pervasive.

I would agree actually, but only to a point. The province I'm in has some of the largest mormon communities in Canada (particularly close to the borders of Montana and Idaho).

Definitely a decent-sized community here in Edmonton. But the thing about it-- is that they can often leave their faith within the confines of their home, when they go to school, or to work, or wherever. I would expect this to be more difficult for your typical mormon of Utah. The hierarchical structure of the respective churches is (likely) still there, and lots of them are still just as dedicated as their Utahn counterparts, but I think the lack of pervasiveness in all aspects of their life allows for things like leaving the church much less difficult.

Either way, I've never been to Utah, so I can only postulate so much on the subject.

 

[fishonjazz]

This is a tough thing, as deeply ingrained as the mormon religion is into our families. We are dealing with a similar situation right now, but in reverse, I guess you might say.

My oldest son is 20. After hemming and hawing about it for a year and a half he didn't go on a mission. He stopped going to church once he got out on his own, and has recently moved in with his girlfriend, who has separated from her husband but whose divorce is not yet finalized. Now she is pregnant. He pays lip service to the church, and claims he goes now and then, but it is all a smoke screen so we don't come down on him, which we haven't done.

And so we (my wife more than me) struggle with the idea that somehow we failed him. He didn't get something he needed or in some other way we screwed up. But I think that is a cultural thing, and partially based in the dogma of the religion, that we fail our children and in our personal development if our kids don't make the "right" choices, so it cuts close to home in more ways than one, and that attitude is one reason I have distanced myself somewhat from the religion over the years.

When people hear we have a 20-y.o. son, they ask when he gets home from his mission. When we tell them he isn't on a mission we get the whole "oh, well. that's um...well you know everyone has...ok...um <awkward laughter and throat clearing> hey look, someone brought jello!" No one knows what to saw and the sideways glances are inevitable. It bothers my wife a lot. I let it mostly roll off, but largely because I already know the LDS church is one of the most judgemental groups (culturally) I have ever been associated with, so I expect it and just roll with it. But she feels like she failed as a parent, and the reactions she gets from church members reinforces those feelings of failure.

Our daughter who just turned 18 and graduated from High School this year was far more active than our son and has been talking about a mission for the past 2-3 years, ever since she went to EFY. That is, until her boyfriend of 2 years, who is going to BYU Idaho, decided he wasn't going on a mission because he doesn't know if he even believes in God and started pressuring her to come to BYU Idaho with him. She now wants to transfer there instead of go on her mission.

This has my wife in tears almost nightly. She feels like she is losing all of her kids. Granted, we have been far from perfect mormon parents, but we have always encouraged our kids to find out the truth for themselves. They have all read the BoM, most of them more than once. They all participated in all the youth activities, etc. We have been probably 75% active over our marriage, with the biggest drop-offs during 9:00 am block times as 9:00 am is TOO FREAKING EARLY FOR CHURCH. 11:00 is perfect.

We have tried to do the "right things" with probably an 60% rate of FHE and family prayer and scripture study. Regular monthly date-nights with each kid we go over their goals and what they want to do in their lives and stress the importance of mission and temple marriage, etc. Father's blessings and other blessings as the situation may warrant (illness, start of school year, tough time in kids life, etc.)

But in the end, no matter what you do, or don't do, they choose for themselves what they believe, and they will act on it as part of their own free agency. It is hard to get my wife to see this and recognize all she can do at this point is love them, provide wise and loving counsel, and accept them for who they are. So we try to teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Sounds good, but in this culture, where you know you are being talked about, and often looked down on, if your family doesn't meet the high requirements set forth by the unwritten rules of mormon societal norms, it doesn't hold a lot of water. The sins of the sons will be answered on the heads of the fathers, so to speak.

Is it really any wonder, in a culture with pressures like that, that is so all-pervasive, that when people do pry themselves away from it, depending on how deep they were in it to begin with, there is going to be bitterness and anger and lashing out, as it would feel like you are tearing yourself apart at the core, and the church would be to blame.

Wow log, thanks for sharing.... sounds tough and I hope things work out for you and your family.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I think it is MUCH more prevalent an issue in Utah. As it seems it obviously would...

@log - you're right that free agency trumps parenting. My wife's parents were perfect parents and my wife rebelled and went crazy for awhile (she revisits crazy from time to time).
My father snorted coke in front of me and basically showed me a life not to live.. no discussion of God. When I turned 18 I went in search of God and always steered clear of tge things I saw my dad do.

What's sad is when religion becomes merely a vehicle to fit in or instill fear in people to act a certain way. It's suppose to be about faith in God and a love for Him that bears good fruits. Not about peer pressure.

 

[franklin]

Some of you are acting like it's weird for people to crusade against something they feel victimized by and view as evil. Magnify an unwelcomed attack by a stranger by whatever psychological effects that a lifelong attack from the entire culture you grew up in and then you'll understand the hater exmo pov. Feeling betrayed and abused by those you trust is guaranteed to volatilize a good fraction of those involved.

 

[Safetydan]

I'm, for all intents and purposes, an ex-mormon, but I've never been antagonistic to the church publicly or privately. I don't have any ill-will towards the church in anyway, I just don't believe anything about it. I suppose you could say that it's just not for me.

I went on a full two year mission to South Korea, and many from my mission (a significant number) are currently inactive and none of them went off the deep end. I know two people from high school who are angry at the Mormon church. One got the **** beat out of him in eastern europe like three times and the other is a militant lesbian who works at a bar.

This is all anecdotal but it's a counterpoint to Beanclown's experience. The majority of my friends who are not currently active(maybe 20) are not, in any way shape or form, angry or obsessed at or with the LDS church. The reason you hear about it is simply because the ones who are angry, are also loud. I'm not loud about my disbelief, who cares? It's not a big deal. You wouldn't know about any of these types of people because WTF would they tell you about it or post about it on facebook (lifeinvader)? They really don't care.

thank you for reading

~Safetydan

 

[Safetydan]

Some of you are acting like it's weird for people to crusade against something they feel victimized by and view as evil. Magnify an unwelcomed attack by a stranger by whatever psychological effects that a lifelong attack from the entire culture you grew up in and then you'll understand the hater exmo pov. Feeling betrayed and abused by those you trust is guaranteed to volatilize a good fraction of those involved.

Most people don't feel betrayed or abused. They just don't believe what the church is saying. Those who do feel victimized obviously(probably) have a good reason to be pissed.

 

[GVC]

Like safetydan, I don't feel betrayed or abused, I just don't believe (I'm assuming he belongs to this group). That's not to say the transition out of the church (served a full-time mission, attended BYU for a while, taught at the MTC) was easy. Perhaps the 3 things that have been the most difficult for me (in terms of completely forgetting about the 10 years I spent as a Mormon):

1. In Provo, what's expected of you is known. 100%. Stepping out of a world like that is both liberating and overwhelming/scary.

2. It's hard to maintain friendships (for me, at least) with Mormons, as it's inevitable someone will slip and tell you what they really think: That you still really believe and will someday find your way back to the church. That fundamental lack of respect hurts. Leaving the church is for many a very lonely endeavor (fortunately, the rest of my immediate family had a foot out the door, and weren't raised in the church).

3. I went out for two years trying to convert people to Mormonism. I sometimes feel I have a responsibility to steer people away from that path, especially since I know some of the manipulative methods encouraged and used by missionaries (the commitment pattern, milk before meat, pray until you get the correct answer, searching for new births, deaths and move-ins as they often lead to people more susceptible to conversion). It's been 8 years since I decided to leave, and I still haven't done much of anything, besides speaking honestly about my thoughts and feelings to those who ask, in this regard.