Will Donovan Mitchell surpass Stockton/Malone careers with the Jazz?

[oneye]

And we never had to worry about them leaving. Malone did have that one offseason where he lost his mind, lol but never worried, knew he was blowing off steam

This is a good point. There was never really a time you thought John or Karl were leaving.

I sort of feel that way with Rudy, I don’t really worry about him leaving. Donovan it’s too early to truly tell, but it’s off to a great start. From what he’s said he plans on being here for a long time, hopefully that’s the truth.

 

[silesian]

FWIW Barkley thinks Donovan was ROY

16:20

https://omny.fm/shows/the-howard-eskin-podcast/the-howard-eskin-podcast-w-charles-barkley

 

[Tom Pitt]

Just because he wins a title doesn’t mean he’s better


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Don't think better. But if he wins a title, at the least he could become as beloved. I would expect more so.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Don't think better. But if he wins a title, at the least he could become as beloved. I would expect more so.

Not by me

 

[♪alt13]

Some team might give him that super max. But that is a risk he didnt want to take and I think it was a smart choice. I dont think its a guarantee that in 2 years a team will want to give up 40% on the back end of their salary to PG. Many teams are seeing that is a bad idea. Hence why some of these players are being traded away, such as PG and Jimmy Butler. Its a no brainer for certain players but these guys are on the fringe of that.

I would not want the Jazz to sign PG to a 10 year vet supermax. You give a supermax to a top 5 player, maybe top 10. I dont think PG is that. I also dont think he will be that in 2 years, I think he will continue to decline. A max like he got now is a decent deal but still risky for a team.

A top 5 player is worth so much more than the super max.(that's kinda the problem with it if you care at all about parity and competition).

KD isn't worth 35 million a year(max). It's closer to 65.

I wouldn't say that Butler is overpaid all that much. It's more that the Superstars are underpaid.

 

[♪alt13]

This is a good point. There was never really a time you thought John or Karl were leaving.

I sort of feel that way with Rudy, I don’t really worry about him leaving. Donovan it’s too early to truly tell, but it’s off to a great start. From what he’s said he plans on being here for a long time, hopefully that’s the truth.

Uhhh no?

Karl had one foot out the door more than once. It took a ton of work and interpersonal relationships to keep him here. Without any one of Stockton, Jerry, or Larry he probably would have left. In a time without max contracts or a Cap, when KM was arguably the 2nd best player in the he NBA, Karl made (iirc) 6 million while Jordan made 33. Above all he wanted to win and the Jazz did a piss poor job of building around Utah's duo.

It was a different time for media when every little thing wasn't blown out of proportion. If KM said the kinda things he did back then today twitter would be on fire and the vultures would be circling.

 

[Hotdog]

A top 5 player is worth so much more than the super max.(that's kinda the problem with it if you care at all about parity and competition).

KD isn't worth 35 million a year(max). It's closer to 65.

I wouldn't say that Butler is overpaid all that much. It's more that the Superstars are underpaid.

Thats maybe a litte high.

If KD was paid that much you couldn't put much around him and its unlikely his team would win a championship. Lebron is really the only guy who could possibly justify that much. No one player(KD) is worth 65% of the cap. Its a team game. Team play will beat that strategy I think. Im pretty sure Id take 3 or 4 guys around 15-22 mil per year, than KD and some scrubs. Of course it all depends who these players are.

I do agree on some level though. I just think its more like some of these wannabe max guys shouldnt be paid as much as they are. The Lebrons and KD's of the world should be making a lot more than the Gordon Haywards.

Getting a max offer should have to come with strict qualifications I think. Then you could have a few different levels down. Gordon Hayward making pretty much the same as the top players in the league is stupid. One Allstar game appearance should not be equal to guys making multiple allstar games, all NBA teams, winning MVP's, winning championships, etc.. These accomplishments should probably effect salary more. Even throw in games won along with minutes played, etc.. Make it one big complicated formula.

What should come out of that formula and what salaries should actually look like is this.

Lebron - 50 mil per

Steph - 40 mil per
KD - 40 mil per

Gordon Hayward - 18 mil per

Thats how you would probably get league parity too.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Uhhh no?

Karl had one foot out the door more than once. It took a ton of work and interpersonal relationships to keep him here. Without any one of Stockton, Jerry, or Larry he probably would have left. In a time without max contracts or a Cap, when KM was arguably the 2nd best player in the he NBA, Karl made (iirc) 6 million while Jordan made 33. Above all he wanted to win and the Jazz did a piss poor job of building around Utah's duo.

It was a different time for media when every little thing wasn't blown out of proportion. If KM said the kinda things he did back then today twitter would be on fire and the vultures would be circling.

Lol. I still remember him doing his own radio bit when he went on his tirade. Never once did I think he was leaving. Every now and then he and Larry H would fight like an old married couple, Larry was like a father to him, never once did I think he was leaving, he never even once asked for a trade even. Every few years Malone would go off, never meant nothing and everyone but you knew he was just blowing off steam.


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[oneye]

Uhhh no?

Karl had one foot out the door more than once. It took a ton of work and interpersonal relationships to keep him here. Without any one of Stockton, Jerry, or Larry he probably would have left. In a time without max contracts or a Cap, when KM was arguably the 2nd best player in the he NBA, Karl made (iirc) 6 million while Jordan made 33. Above all he wanted to win and the Jazz did a piss poor job of building around Utah's duo.

It was a different time for media when every little thing wasn't blown out of proportion. If KM said the kinda things he did back then today twitter would be on fire and the vultures would be circling.

Yes Larry and Karl had lover spats, but you kind of knew they would always come back to each other like every on again off again couple seems to do. If Karl was ever serious about leaving, he would have for some of the reasons you listed. Karl never actually wanted to leave, even if he had to stir up drama at times. There’s no way they could have held onto Karl for 18 seasons if he wanted to leave or had any plans of actually doing it.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Thats maybe a litte high.

If KD was paid that much you couldn't put much around him and its unlikely his team would win a championship. Lebron is really the only guy who could possibly justify that much. No one player(KD) is worth 65% of the cap. Its a team game. Team play will beat that strategy I think. Im pretty sure Id take 3 or 4 guys around 15-22 mil per year, than KD and some scrubs. Of course it all depends who these players are.

I do agree on some level though. I just think its more like some of these wannabe max guys shouldnt be paid as much as they are. The Lebrons and KD's of the world should be making a lot more than the Gordon Haywards.

Getting a max offer should have to come with strict qualifications I think. Then you could have a few different levels down. Gordon Hayward making pretty much the same as the top players in the league is stupid. One Allstar game appearance should not be equal to guys making multiple allstar games, all NBA teams, winning MVP's, winning championships, etc.. These accomplishments should probably effect salary more. Even throw in games won along with minutes played, etc.. Make it one big complicated formula.

What should come out of that formula and what salaries should actually look like is this.

Lebron - 50 mil per

Steph - 40 mil per
KD - 40 mil per

Gordon Hayward - 18 mil per

Thats how you would probably get league parity too.

They could alter the rules to favor big men again, were they come at a premium and cut into what good wings can get.

Also, too many max contracts are one way players or average defensively.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

The absolute only thing that could curtail whats ahead with him is some injury.

Unfortunately injury is far from the only thing that could possibly happen. Like every Jazz fan I hope that his career continues to follow the amazing arc he has already set. We are very, very fortunate to have him as a Jazzman. Here's to many more great years. Go Donovan!

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

This is a good point. There was never really a time you thought John or Karl were leaving.

I sort of feel that way with Rudy, I don’t really worry about him leaving. Donovan it’s too early to truly tell, but it’s off to a great start. From what he’s said he plans on being here for a long time, hopefully that’s the truth.

I recall several times when it seemed like Karl was going to leave. He got pretty dramatic nearly every summer, and he eventually left. I never thought there was a chance John was going anywhere.

 

[checkbookdoc]

For me, if DM plays around 75% or more of his career in Utah, and wins a ring, then he probably overtakes Stockton and Malone. If he wins a ring and then leaves the Jazz and goes on to play many more productive years it probably wouldn't be enough in my mind (at that point he is likely in the Hall of fame, so if he elects to go in as a Jazzman then it gets close). However, if DM never wins a ring I don't think he has much chance to mean more to this franchise than Stockton and Malone. They were household names for almost 2 decades! They set a foundation and expectation of what Utah Jazz basketball is (at all levels: fan, player, coach, front office, etc). Expecting DM to play productively every night for 15 years, or to bring similar hardware/awards recognition to the statues is just unrealistic. And I don't think it is even possible for him to impact the organization as much as John and Karl did. So basically, if you are under about 35, DM might mean more to YOU, but as far as the franchise goes...

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

For me, if DM plays around 75% or more of his career in Utah, and wins a ring, then he probably overtakes Stockton and Malone. If he wins a ring and then leaves the Jazz and goes on to play many more productive years it probably wouldn't be enough in my mind (at that point he is likely in the Hall of fame, so if he elects to go in as a Jazzman then it gets close). However, if DM never wins a ring I don't think he has much chance to mean more to this franchise than Stockton and Malone. They were household names for almost 2 decades! They set a foundation and expectation of what Utah Jazz basketball is (at all levels: fan, player, coach, front office, etc). Expecting DM to play productively every night for 15 years, or to bring similar hardware/awards recognition to the statues is just unrealistic. And I don't think it is even possible for him to impact the organization as much as John and Karl did. So basically, if you are under about 35, DM might mean more to YOU, but as far as the franchise goes...

Thanks for posting this drivel. Using your logic, guys like Derrick Fisher had better careers then Stockton and Malone.


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[checkbookdoc]

Thanks for posting this drivel. Using your logic, guys like Derrick Fisher had better careers then Stockton and Malone.


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Did you mean to reply to someone else? Because my post would argue the complete opposite of what you are accusing me of LOL... IDIOT

 

[oneye]

I recall several times when it seemed like Karl was going to leave. He got pretty dramatic nearly every summer, and he eventually left. I never thought there was a chance John was going anywhere.

If he ever really wanted to leave he would have. He left the year John retired to go ring chasing at 40 years old, I can forgive him for that mistake. Karl was never leaving John. He had every chance to leave and never did.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

I get it’s a bit of an open ended question, but I’m just asking, will he be the greatest player in franchise history, will he surpass their legacy in a Jazz uniform. Of course part of it is stats, part of it is personal achievements and team achievements, and part of it is being involved and loved by the fan base. There are some things that he will never surpass them in stats wise, but basically will he have a bigger impact on the fan base and franchise than Stockton and Malone combined with his stats and accomplishments? John and Karl accomplished a hell of a lot, and despite not winning a ring, had two HOF careers that lasted 2 decades. Can/will Donovan surpass that with this franchise?

It is nearly impossible to answer yes to that question. I remember several times throughout Malone's career when the fans turned on him and he still stayed because of his love for the city, even when the city didn't show their love for him. To me, there will never be someone that surpasses Malone or Stockton. But there is room for another hero that will have their own place.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

It is nearly impossible to answer yes to that question. I remember several times throughout Malone's career when the fans turned on him and he still stayed because of his love for the city, even when the city didn't show their love for him. To me, there will never be someone that surpasses Malone or Stockton. But there is room for another hero that will have their own place.

I'm good with the Mt. Rushmore idea. No need to replace.

 

[oneye]

It is nearly impossible to answer yes to that question. I remember several times throughout Malone's career when the fans turned on him and he still stayed because of his love for the city, even when the city didn't show their love for him. To me, there will never be someone that surpasses Malone or Stockton. But there is room for another hero that will have their own place.

I don’t disagree and I don’t mean to say will Donovan replace them, he won’t. It’s an opinion thing, and agreed we have no idea.

 

[Grimmetal]

Winning a ring will get him 99% of the way. Longevity will be the missing piece.