Would you trade Exum for Lavine?

[Handlogten's Heros]

Jazz have been winning with him as starter at a pretty good clip. He makes the Jazz better, lavine does not make minny better right now.

I seriously doubt more than 1 or 2 people here watches lots of Minny games. I have watched about 20 only because I really like Maple Jordan and want to see as many as I can. Minny is really hard to watch though and that is about my limit. Lavine is really hard to watch most of the time.

Also in games we win Exum plays more minutes... In games Minnesota wins Lavine plays less minutes.

I like both guys I just think Exum has made the decision to play winning basketball rather than try to be aggressive at the detriment of the team. Right now Gordon, Hood, and Burke can all create shots better than he can, so he is deferring.

We've seen him be aggressive in summer league and at the Nike Hoop Summit. I believe he has it in him. i really don't think we have a clue of what he will be on offense and there is a chance he is a bust (relative to where he was picked), but I think right now we are seeing the colt... in a few years he'll be a horse.

 

[Sexual Favors]

Exum being aggressive would most certainly not be a detriment to this team. It would help us win more. Exum helps us win because he is a good defender and Burke was atrocious. This is why Kanter said he never had a true point guard. Our other core players (Hayward, Favors, Gobert, Burks, and Kanter while he was here) are probably all a little better than we have seen. Especially Favors and Gobert (because they are most dependent on PG play) because they've rarely played NBA ball with a legit PG. Dante helps us win by comparison to Burke. Burke was bad at offense and defense. Dante is just bad at offense.

I still really like Exum, and in no way think he will be a bust. I just really like Lavine and think he projects as a generational talent with his size, speed, athleticism, passing, and shooting. Then you factor in his work ethic and desire. Sure, he's not the smartest, but he's also not as dumb as you all say. Sometimes it takes awhile for the brain to catch up with the talent. How often is it that we see a prospect who projects so well in so many areas? A lot of athletes can't shoot, but he can... that is the ultimate weapon.

 

[fishonjazz]

lavine does not make minny better right now.

How do we know that minny would not be worse if lavine was injured?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I know I would.


Exum's biggest problem is he is soft mentally. Dude is scared to take it to the rack. He's got the mentality of a 12 year old out there.

I'm not calling him a bust. I just like Lavine a lot better.

Exum has some things going for him, like his defense, but he sure has a long ways to go. He better mature over the summer. We need a good point guard next year.

I'm not sure who I'd take. I do think it's worth pointing out that this was a common criticism of Hayward in his earlier years, that he was soft mentally, acted at times scared to shoot, deferred excessively to others, played passively and didn't take the ball to the hoop often enough or with any confidence. I made many of these criticisms myself.

I dare say that with his performance this year, he has put all these concerns to bed. In sum, I believe that it is still too early to say anything about Exum definitively at this point. I think we need at least another 2 years to see what kind of player he'll be. The question is whether we can afford to wait that long if we want to begin contending sooner rather than later.

Frankly, if we're playing 'what if' here, I think the better question is whether we should have taken Elfrid Peyton instead of Exum. Peyton, at least judging by the box scores, is a baller with a bright future. Orlando clearly had him higher on its board than Exum. Should we have had him higher too?

 

[Spinoza]

Yes I would. His mindset is better, he's more athletic, a better dunker, a better shooter, and he's similarly sized/young.


I'm not closing the book on Exum in anyway, I still think he'll develop to be good, but if you all remeber, I really really wanted Lavine from this draft.

How do you see him personality wise? Would he be a good fit?

 

[Spinoza]

I'm curious how Cy would vote on this. Don't see him listed.

 

[Harambe]

I'm bowing out of this vote only because I wanted Lavine more than I wanted Exum.

But I'm still positive on Exum. He could turn it around

 

[Spinoza]

The thing that eats at me about exum is he is nothing like I thought he would be. I though he would be getting in the lane at will, and be working toward finishing with contact. Like burks with better vision. He has absolutely been the opposite of that.. Was he just fools gold, or is he trying not to be himself?

With Exum, it's not about what he is, but what he is going to be. Kind of sucks because there's no way to know. My hypothesis is that he just needs to feel like he "belongs" in the league and he'll start playing the way he did in U18.

The biggest thing that concerns me is Snyder and his staff. Why hasn't Exum progressed overall? Why has he regressed in certain areas? What are they teaching him and how much and what kind of focus have they been giving him?

 

[kabenac]

I like ZL better now and would do the trade based on what I've seen so far. Hoping Exum improves dramatically as a shooter and distributor so we're happy with our pick.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

The bottom line is when Exum is on the court the team averages 106.4 pts per 100 possessions offensively, and allows 105.9 pts per 100 possessions defensively.

When Exum is off the court the team averages 108.2 pts per 100 possessions offensively, and allows 113.4 pts per 100 possessions defensively.

I'm pretty sure this means that Exum actually does help this team win ballgames.

Nope. It does not mean that at all. RPM is designed to account for who you are playing with (to some extent). Exum has a negative RPM. He is hidden by playing virtually all of his minutes with Hayward and Favors. If I played in a rec league with Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, and Duncan, I'm sure we'd have a positive point differential too, but that doesn't mean I'm helping them win.

I was primarily responding to multiple posters who were critiquing Lavine's RPM. Which is really bad. But we can't use one statistic for one player to show he's good, and a different one to show that another player is bad. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

With Exum, it's not about what he is, but what he is going to be. Kind of sucks because there's no way to know. My hypothesis is that he just needs to feel like he "belongs" in the league and he'll start playing the way he did in U18.

The biggest thing that concerns me is Snyder and his staff. Why hasn't Exum progressed overall? Why has he regressed in certain areas? What are they teaching him and how much and what kind of focus have they been giving him?

I agree. I think Exum is going to show major improvement in year 2 and 3 once he adjusts. Coming from HS Australia ball, he just wasn't ready for the physicality of the NBA. Locke mentioned the other day that he thinks Exum is ready for the season to be over so that he can get his body ready for next year. I don't think we're going to see anything different from him over the next few weeks.

 

[stormkoopacv03]

I'll be honest and say I wasn't a big fan of the Jazz drafting Exum with the 5th pick. He looked very raw, a mystery and somewhat unprepared for the league. I wanted someone who could step in right away and contribute like Marcus Smart but.. he made a douche bag-like move and said he didn't want to get drafted by the Jazz. Exum has a lot potential but it'll take some hurtin' time. Would I trade Exum for Lavine if given the opportunity? Yes. Lavine isn't shying away from being aggressive and is showing a lot of confidence in his game when he plays on the court. But hey, that's just me.

 

[Spinoza]

The bottom line is when Exum is on the court the team averages 106.4 pts per 100 possessions offensively, and allows 105.9 pts per 100 possessions defensively.

When Exum is off the court the team averages 108.2 pts per 100 possessions offensively, and allows 113.4 pts per 100 possessions defensively.

I'm pretty sure this means that Exum actually does help this team win ballgames.

What it does is provide evidence for the claim that Exum helps the team win ballgames, but it doesn't mean that. Exum being on the court could be correlated with some other variable(s) that are causing the improvement. The most obvious one is Gobert. For simplicity, imagine that Exum and Gobert always played together and hold everything else constant. In that case it would be impossible, using numbers alone, to determine whether Exum or Gobert or some combination of the two was the cause of the improved play.

With all that said, I feel very certain and have for a long time that the Jazz are a better team with Exum on the court, regardless of his awful individual statistical performance.

 

[Sexual Favors]

How do you see him personality wise? Would he be a good fit?

personality wise, I think he'd fit in very well. Outsiders see him as cocky, but insiders say he is confident and someone who listens. They say he is a gym rat who literally spends every waking moment working on his game, despite being told about the rookie wall over and over again (he seems to actually busted right through it). Sure, he thinks he's a little thug, but he's more Space Jam than gangster. He'd fit in with Hayward who used to make rap songs called "I'm too big yo." I love players with determination and confidence, so long as they believe they still need to improve, which he does believe as evidenced by his time in the gym.

Also, those comparing Lavine to Burke are way off base. Worst case scenario is Lavine never has good enough judgement to be a PG, well then he has perfect size for an SG who can shoot, pass, and penetrate. If Trey can't figure it all out, he's just screwed as he can only pass (when he chooses to).

 

[Sexual Favors]

Now if only there was a way to have both Lavine and Exum. Ex as PG, and Lavine as the two-man.

Would anyone do Trey, the 2015 pick, and some second rounders*

* (if the 2015 pick was #13 and out of reach for all good players)

 

[Jazz4ever]

personality wise, I think he'd fit in very well. Outsiders see him as cocky, but insiders say he is confident and someone who listens. They say he is a gym rat who literally spends every waking moment working on his game, despite being told about the rookie wall over and over again (he seems to actually busted right through it). Sure, he thinks he's a little thug, but he's more Space Jam than gangster. He'd fit in with Hayward who used to make rap songs called "I'm too big yo." I love players with determination and confidence, so long as they believe they still need to improve, which he does believe as evidenced by his time in the gym.

Also, those comparing Lavine to Burke are way off base. Worst case scenario is Lavine never has good enough judgement to be a PG, well then he has perfect size for an SG who can shoot, pass, and penetrate. If Trey can't figure it all out, he's just screwed as he can only pass (when he chooses to).

Lavine is small for a SG. He is 180 lbs, and there are some PGs with a longer wingspan and standing reach.

 

[Harambe]

Now if only there was a way to have both Lavine and Exum. Ex as PG, and Lavine as the two-man.

Would anyone do Trey, the 2015 pick, and some second rounders*

* (if the 2015 pick was #13 and out of reach for all good players)

Yes. But I doubt Minnesota will bite unless they're more upset with Rubio than they lead on.

 

[bmg melbourne]

With Exum, it's not about what he is, but what he is going to be. Kind of sucks because there's no way to know. My hypothesis is that he just needs to feel like he "belongs" in the league and he'll start playing the way he did in U18.

The biggest thing that concerns me is Snyder and his staff. Why hasn't Exum progressed overall? Why has he regressed in certain areas? What are they teaching him and how much and what kind of focus have they been giving him?

I really like your comments and agree with you. I too wonder what the staff are focusing on with Exum. When Dante was asked how Snyder had helped him out so far he referred to Quin showing some step drills or something like that.

You would hope the staff are focusing on getting Dante to drive to the rim on a more regular basis. as long as he keeps practicing his shooting the 3 shot will gradually improve, but they need to get on his back on a daily basis about driving to the rim.

To be serious though this is a stupid thread, nearly every rookie point guard in the NBA is far more advanced in confidence and being aggressive in the NBA right now than Dante is. Dante was always going to take time and personally I don't think we will see an NBA quality point guard in Exum until year 3.

They should have started 2 threads instead of this one.

Thread 1 - those that hate Exum: post here
Thread 2 - those that like Exum: post here

I did want to add though that I agree with everything negative people have said about Dante's offensive game. The one thing that really angers me is that next year when/if Dante starts driving to the rim on a more consistent basis, say 2 or 3 times a game he will make mistakes as would be expected. However these will be mistakes he should be making in his rookie year and by not getting to the rim enough this year he is kinda delaying his own development and he only has himself to blame.

Either he learns to get to the rim or he will have no NBA career to develop.

 

[Ben10]

Hack this tread makes no sense to me. For the last year all you have railed on is how defense wins championships. Now you want to trade a good defensive pass first PG for a guy that is shoot first and gives up 4 blowby layups a game to Trey Burke? Your flip flopping is confusing


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[The Blue Elephant]

I am surprised the answers were this split on a Jazz forum.