Through Jesus, I am defined by being God's child.

[m3at]

2+2 = 4. That is truth. There is no truth in a belief unless there are facts to prove that "truth". Otherwise it's just your opinion and/or belief. I'm christian, but as much as I want to say, "I know this unseen being loves each of us", there is no truth in that. Again, anything related to our belief is not going to be considered truth, because again, it's a belief/wish/faith/hope. "It is raining today" is not stating a truth or a fact when it's bright and sunny, but a hope/belief and no matter how hard we wish it would rain still does not make this statement true. "it's raining like mad out there" is a stated fact and the evidence is that water is falling from the sky so this statement is true.

So when statements like, "I know there is a God that loves us and wants us to be happy", are made it's merely a hope/wish/belief regardless of how much "you" think you know it to be true. Why? Well, there are absolutely zero facts to prove this existence except "feelings".

In fact, one could argue that those feelings are a figment of each persons imagination due to that hope/faith/belief and that those feelings can be reproduced through scientific means which leads me to the "God Helmet". If you don't know what this is, look it up. Pretty fascinating stuff and yet, there are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding the "God Helmet" because of the limitations of science in understanding exactly how the brain works.

Here is a picture that depicts what I'm really trying to say:

 

[porqsmith]

I don't mind discussing my beliefs, and I will try harder to not have an attitude.

Maybe this is a better way of me responding to your saying belief in God is subjective.
Our belief in him is personal and our beliefs may be subjective.
That does not change the nature of God.
The truth of God will not change because I believe He is actually a person, and someone else believes God is some power somewhere without any form.
So, we can believe what we want, but my whole point here is that God will tell us if we ask him. So why would we not ask Him what is Truth?

As to God not answering us in the same way, I believe he does. If you ask the same question as I do, and we both are really trying to find out the truth, he will not lie. This is why I believe we would receive the same answer. The trick is making sure we are asking the same question, and that we both really want to know.

Ok, I am shutting up, unless you do want to continue a discussion.

Oh, I'd love to continue this discussion. I don't personally know any religious people, so this board is the only place I ever hear from believers.

So, as I understand it, you believe God will give consistent answers.

Why, then, do people from various belief systems make the same or similar attempts to receive answers from God with wildly differing results?

 

[LogGrad98]

Truth is truth.
Your understanding of Truth is objective.
Truth will not change, you will.

I agree but then how do we know the truth is true?

Gotta remember something. Before Copernicus and Galileo everyone knew the truth was the sun and all the heavens revolved around the earth. The church espoused this so adamantly that they excommunicated Galileo (a horrendous punishment in his time) and in the end he payed for it with his life. Was it the truth? With new knowledge "truth" can change.

Kay summed it up pretty good in Men in Black:

Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

 

[m3at]

I don't mind discussing my beliefs, and I will try harder to not have an attitude.

Maybe this is a better way of me responding to your saying belief in God is subjective.
Our belief in him is personal and our beliefs may be subjective.
That does not change the nature of God.
The truth of God will not change because I believe He is actually a person, and someone else believes God is some power somewhere without any form.
So, we can believe what we want, but my whole point here is that God will tell us if we ask him. So why would we not ask Him what is Truth?

As to God not answering us in the same way, I believe he does. If you ask the same question as I do, and we both are really trying to find out the truth, he will not lie. This is why I believe we would receive the same answer. The trick is making sure we are asking the same question, and that we both really want to know.

Ok, I am shutting up, unless you do want to continue a discussion.

I think you're basing your understanding of God off your belief which is completely subjective and personal. If I don't believe in the same God as you do, the how can he NOT change because, after-all, this is simply a belief...right? There is absolutely no way to prove the existence of God(s).

 

[LogGrad98]

I think you're basing your understanding of God off your belief which is completely subjective and personal. If I don't believe in the same God as you do, the how can he NOT change because, after-all, this is simply a belief...right? There is absolutely no way to prove the existence of God(s).

There is no way to prove he/she/they do NOT exist either. Assuming something is not there because there is no evidence (or you do not accept any evidence as valid) is still an assumption. An unprovable theory on both sides.

 

[m3at]

Oh, I'd love to continue this discussion. I don't personally know any religious people, so this board is the only place I ever hear from believers.

So, as I understand it, you believe God will give consistent answers.

Why, then, do people from various belief systems make the same or similar attempts to receive answers from God with wildly differing results?

Great point. I have the answer, well at least what I think the answer will be. "Because my beliefs are correct". How do you know? "Because God told me". And round and round we go!

This is where humanity is failing. Instead of believing in the human spirit, we have put all of our trust in the culture we were a part of. In essence, we are all products of our culture and if that culture is to worship a giant monkey, well then, you're all going to hell because that giant monkey is God and he told us that our sacrifices of bananas was a true practice.

 

[m3at]

There is no way to prove he/she/they do NOT exist either. Assuming something is not there because there is no evidence (or you do not accept any evidence as valid) is still an assumption. An unprovable theory on both sides.

I totally agree. It's arrogant on either side to say there is or isn't a God. The fact is, no one really knows.

 

[Jerry Lundegaard]

Here is a picture that depicts what I'm really trying to say:

I totally get it. We can't be sure if that robed Dinosaur is named Jesus or if that man with the nice hair (pause) is using Jesus Christ's name in vain? Furthermore, we can't be sure if the Dinosaur is actually laughing out loud or if it verbally articulated "L-O-L". We just can never be too sure!

 

[LogGrad98]

Great point. I have the answer, well at least what I think the answer will be. "Because my beliefs are correct". How do you know? "Because God told me". And round and round we go!

This is where humanity is failing. Instead of believing in the human spirit, we have put all of our trust in the culture we were a part of. In essence, we are all products of our culture and if that culture is to worship a giant monkey, well then, you're all going to hell because that giant monkey is God and he told us that our sacrifices of bananas was a true practice.

https://www.venganza.org/

Are you a pastafarian? Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

In this I find my greatest objection to faith. To me, at it's foundation faith is an act of denying and avoiding reality. You must first accept the fact that reality is not really real by accepting a supernatural and intelligent role in creating reality. That essentially means that the same supernatural entity (God) can change reality at any moment. That it is impossible to really know anything, because after all, you cannot know the mind of God. You must also accept that your perception, your ability to think and reason based on actual reality, is flawed. You have to already accept that God can be real before you can find out that He is real. Then, the way in which you find out that God is real is just that you know, or have a feeling in your bosom, or some other self-reassuring sensation that allows you not to actually know, but to feel good about your effort to actively deceive yourself and evade reality.

So in essence faith is the rejection of one's own mind. Rejection that the way in which we, as intelligent beings, interact with the world should be the result of thinking and reasoning. Rejection of our individual responsibility to understand this world as it is, rather than the way we wish, hope or desire that it is.

Anyone can convince them self of any fantasy they desire if they try hard enough and actively evade the facts that contradict their fantasy.
That's my take, anyway.

Ok.
I disagree totally, but its all good.
I highlighted my favorite part though because I thought I could say it right back to you.

Personally I think faith is not denying, but accepting reality. It is also accepting that there is more to life than you, and that there are things out there that you do not know or understand. It is accepting that all of this around us is not mere coincidence, but is part of something bigger.

Carry on.

 

[porqsmith]

Ok.
I disagree totally, but its all good.
I highlighted my favorite part though because I thought I could say it right back to you.

Personally I think faith is not denying, but accepting reality. It is also accepting that there is more to life than you, and that there are things out there that you do not know or understand. It is accepting that all of this around us is not mere coincidence, but is part of something bigger.

Carry on.

Reality does not require faith, as it is observable. We may misunderstand our observations at times, but we can always keep trying.

I think everyone accepts that there are things out there that we don't (yet) understand. The problem is that believers try to define that which we don't know or understand and claim their definitions as truth.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I agree but then how do we know the truth is true?

Gotta remember something. Before Copernicus and Galileo everyone knew the truth was the sun and all the heavens revolved around the earth. The church espoused this so adamantly that they excommunicated Galileo (a horrendous punishment in his time) and in the end he payed for it with his life. Was it the truth? With new knowledge "truth" can change.

Kay summed it up pretty good in Men in Black:

That Men in Black quote is interesting but not wholly true. Anyway.

If humanity reaches a point scientifically where it can prove the existence of a human being's soul being the creator of all existence, doesn't that undermine the entire enterprise of "faith" and how great of a virtue it is?

 

[NUMBERICA]

I totally agree. It's arrogant on either side to say there is or isn't a God. The fact is, no one really knows.

I agree with the latter (as it is fact) and have a bit of food for thought on the former; is it arrogant to say that because there is no concrete evidence of the existence of Santa Claus*, that I do not believe in him (even though there is nothing I can do to DISprove his existence)? That's my atheism.

*Sorry to use that term again. I'm aware it's condescending, but the shoe fits in the comparison as I see it.

 

[Gameface]

Ok.
I disagree totally, but its all good.
I highlighted my favorite part though because I thought I could say it right back to you.

Personally I think faith is not denying, but accepting reality. It is also accepting that there is more to life than you, and that there are things out there that you do not know or understand. It is accepting that all of this around us is not mere coincidence, but is part of something bigger.

Carry on.

But I'm not making any assertions about what is real other than that which I can see and verify. I am not saying God does not exist. I am also not saying that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. However, I do not give anymore weight or validity to the possibility of Their existence than the facts support, which is to say none.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Oh, I'd love to continue this discussion. I don't personally know any religious people, so this board is the only place I ever hear from believers.

So, as I understand it, you believe God will give consistent answers.

Why, then, do people from various belief systems make the same or similar attempts to receive answers from God with wildly differing results?

That one requires a long answer because you always have to start with common ground.
Let me try to step through this without going into too much detail. This is just my understanding so take it as you will.

God exists. All of us humans existed before coming to the earth. God had a body of flesh and bone, we had bodies of spirit. God had a plan to help us gain bodies and become like him, it involved coming to the earth to get a body, and to be tested to see if we really believed in him and loved him ( to test our stuff, in a controlled environment). Without going into the plan, we needed a Savior to help us get back to God because we could not do it alone. Jesus said I will go and do it as you want. Lucifer said I will go and we will do it my way. Lucifer was rejected, and sent to the earth to be part of our test with those that followed him. He is not happy about not getting a body, and he is doing all he can to ruin it for us and make it hard on us because he wants us to be miserable like him. We come to the earth and now it is testing time. We get to show our stuff, but Lucifer (Satan, whatever) makes it hard on us. God sent Jesus to help us, and he sends the Holy Spirit to help us, but is up to us to seek him out for help, and ask him. Satan tries to copy and trick us all along the way. I think that Satan will trick as many people as possible into having them think they are receiving messages from God, and there are also some people out there that are just saying what they want to say in order to get gain.

I really think we are all children of God, and we can know when it is really him talking to us in one way or another.

 

[porqsmith]

That one requires a long answer because you always have to start with common ground.
Let me try to step through this without going into too much detail. This is just my understanding so take it as you will.

God exists. All of us humans existed before coming to the earth. God had a body of flesh and bone, we had bodies of spirit. God had a plan to help us gain bodies and become like him, it involved coming to the earth to get a body, and to be tested to see if we really believed in him and loved him ( to test our stuff, in a controlled environment). Without going into the plan, we needed a Savior to help us get back to God because we could not do it alone. Jesus said I will go and do it as you want. Lucifer said I will go and we will do it my way. Lucifer was rejected, and sent to the earth to be part of our test with those that followed him. He is not happy about not getting a body, and he is doing all he can to ruin it for us and make it hard on us because he wants us to be miserable like him. We come to the earth and now it is testing time. We get to show our stuff, but Lucifer (Satan, whatever) makes it hard on us. God sent Jesus to help us, and he sends the Holy Spirit to help us, but is up to us to seek him out for help, and ask him. Satan tries to copy and trick us all along the way. I think that Satan will trick as many people as possible into having them think they are receiving messages from God, and there are also some people out there that are just saying what they want to say in order to get gain.

I really think we are all children of God, and we can know when it is really him talking to us in one way or another.

So, if I may paraphrase, you are saying that those who receive answers not consistent with the ones you've received are actually being influenced by Satan?

 

[jazzrule]

Faith precedes the miracle

I totally agree. It's arrogant on either side to say there is or isn't a God. The fact is, no one really knows.

The Holy Ghost will testify to your spirit that Jesus is the Christ, and no it will not be like bells and whistles. It will come as a still small voice, a warming sensation or a feeling of peace. Later you will have experiences that will confirm what you believe is true. Those experiences prove to you that God exist. Having experienced some of those sacred experiences, I can say I know that God exist and that Jesus is the Christ. No I can not prove it to you. You have to prove it for yourself. If you do not find out for yourself if it is true, then you will have to pay for your own sins. HIS sacrifice for us is only for those that with true intent seek Him and find Him.

 

[franklin]

Truth is objective. Belief in a deity is subjective, correct.

If it's true, it has evidence. It's proven. That's it. If you people want to use arguments that fly like a butterfly and sting like a butterfly, then... do your thing I guess.

Take some science classes. Seriously. Flat earth society doesn't fit you well.

 

[Gameface]

The Holy Ghost will testify to your spirit that Jesus is the Christ, and no it will not be like bells and whistles. It will come as a still small voice, a warming sensation or a feeling of peace. Later you will have experiences that will confirm what you believe is true. Those experiences prove to you that God exist. Having experienced some of those sacred experiences, I can say I know that God exist and that Jesus is the Christ. No I can not prove it to you. You have to prove it for yourself. If you do not find out for yourself if it is true, then you will have to pay for your own sins. HIS sacrifice for us is only for those that with true intent seek Him and find Him.

Why must I do this? Why do I have to make a leap of faith, then believe, then get confirmation? What value is there in doing this, and/or in making me do this to prove my worth? Why does this process allow me to be saved? Why will I be very brutally punished for not doing this? In other words, what does God get out of this nonsense? Why not appeal to the greatest tool we have for life, our minds? Why make us reject what we know and accept something that we don't and cannot know?

I can think of only one reason. In order to make people believe in something that is not real.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Reality does not require faith, as it is observable. We may misunderstand our observations at times, but we can always keep trying.

I think everyone accepts that there are things out there that we don't (yet) understand. The problem is that believers try to define that which we don't know or understand and claim their definitions as truth.

Why would that be a problem. That is the whole point of faith, stepping out of your comfort zone and testing something. You may find that you take that step of faith into the darkness, only to find your way is lit for a step or two. I am not so blind that I say if I cannot see it or touch it, it must not be true. I have explained how anyone can test it, it's not like I'm saying just trust me. Try it out for yourselves. You don't even have to tell me about it..... it just requires some desire, honesty, and yes.... a little faith.