Where does Utah fit in the West?

[fishonjazz]

I agree with the OP as far as trying like hell to get a star. I disagree with the OP about love being a star though.

I also agree with thee jazz fan. The jazz have a lot of good things going on with the current team, but I think the current teams ceiling is the raptors or hawks. And that's not necessarily a bad thing if you like making the playoffs and occasionally advancing in the playoffs (I like those things) but if you want to actually be considered to be a contender then your best player needs to be better than Hayward, derozan, or millsap.

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[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I know I Know Defense Defense Defense but...

Love for Favors is the kind of trade that should happen. Both teams would be better.

Exum
Hood
Hayward
Love
Gobert

Other then the rebounding, I think Lyles in a year or three could be better offensively, and I think a rotation of favors Lyles>Love Lyles. I have zero interest in Love. Favors Lyles gives this team more versatility.

I agree with the OP as far as trying like hell to get a star. I disagree with the OP about love being a star though.

I also agree with thee jazz fan. The jazz have a lot of good things going on with the current team, but I think the current teams ceiling is the raptors or hawks. And that's not necessarily a bad thing if you like making the playoffs and occasionally advancing in the playoffs (I like those things) but if you want to actually be considered to be a contender then your best player needs to be better than Hayward, derozan, or millsap.

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I feel we are in far better shape then the raptors and Hawks. Both teams are finished products. There is still hope we have a star or two.

 

[fishonjazz]

I feel we are in far better shape then the raptors and Hawks. Both teams are finished products. There is still hope we have a star or two.

Those two teams are loaded. Compare their rosters to ours position by position. They are better than us. We do have potential to improve but one of our young unfinished guys has to be a true star level player for us to really ever be a notch above the hawks and raptors.

Who will be that star for us? I used to think Burks or favors could be. I don't think so anymore.
So much rides on exum being a superstar talent.


I agree with you about lyles vs love though

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Those two teams are loaded. Compare their rosters to ours position by position. They are better than us. We do have potential to improve but one of our young unfinished guys has to be a true star level player for us to really ever be a notch above the hawks and raptors.

Who will be that star for us? I used to think Burks or favors could be. I don't think so anymore.
So much rides on exum being a superstar talent.


I agree with you about lyles vs love though

Hood Exum and Gobert on defense. Then u look at the fact we also have favors and Burks on team friendly contracts, and Hayward and Lyles, and tons of cap room. We are far more loaded then either of those teams in a year or two. Personally I don't see how Exum won't be a star.

 

[fishonjazz]

We are far more loaded then either of those teams in a year or two.

Far more loaded? The raptors just won 56 games this year and the hawks won 60 games in the 14-15 season.
If we will be far more loaded than 57 and 60 win teams in a year or two then that means that we will basically be the warriors or spurs in a couple years.
I don't buy it. I think with our current roster, some internal growth, a few decent free agent additions, and some more draft picks we might be a 55 win team in a few years. Still less wins this those raptors and hawks teams and certainly not far better than them. And that 55 wins is only if everything goes perfectly.

Again, being "only" as good as the hawks or raptors is not really a bad thing. I would love for us to be that good. I would love to win close to 60 games and get to the 2nd round of the playoffs and maybe even to the conference finals! (Raptors)
That would be awesome imo.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

The jazz have a lot of good things going on with the current team, but I think the current teams ceiling is the raptors or hawks.

Here's the difference that can make Utah better, though. Utah has the potential to be the best defensive team in the league. Better than the spurs or GS, and most fans seem to overlook the significance of that. If they can get back to where they were before Exum got injured, they can win a lot of games, even without some offensive stud, which is what everyone is really talking about when they talk about a star. Giving up on that league best defense to trade for better offense would be a mistake. We can improve our offense without tearing down the defense.

Personally I don't see how Exum won't be a star.

I love Dante, but assuming he will be a star at this point is a huge stretch. Even without the injury, it would have been a stretch. I still have high hopes, but am very concerned about how much of his quickness he will regain. Otherwise, I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread. Fans have grown impatient, but trading away our defense just to improve the offense would be a mistake.

 

[fishonjazz]

Here's the difference that can make Utah better, though. Utah has the potential to be the best defensive team in the league. Better than the spurs or GS, and most fans seem to overlook the significance of that. If they can get back to where they were before Exum got injured, they can win a lot of games, even without some offensive stud, which is what everyone is really talking about when they talk about a star. Giving up on that league best defense to trade for better offense would be a mistake. We can improve our offense without tearing down the defense.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the raptors/hawks as the jazz ceiling. Close to 60 wins (raptors were 1 win from being the 1st seed and having home court throughout the playoffs) and getting into the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs?
Geez with some people it seems like if you don't say the jazz will be the best team in the league and win championships with the current roster within a few years then you are a pessimistic downer somehow.

 

[fishonjazz]

Here's the difference that can make Utah better, though. Utah has the potential to be the best defensive team in the league. Better than the spurs or GS, and most fans seem to overlook the significance of that. If they can get back to where they were before Exum got injured, they can win a lot of games, even without some offensive stud, which is what everyone is really talking about when they talk about a star. Giving up on that league best defense to trade for better offense would be a mistake. We can improve our offense without tearing down the defense.

Let's say the jazz have the #1 defense in the league and hold opponents to 92 points per game... But the jazz only score 95 per game with their lack of offense, spacing issues, and snails pace. Well that's great. That means we have a +3 point differential. Which ain't bad (this year we were +1.5 or so).

The warriors and spurs were over +10 in point differential. The cavs were over +6. Raptors were like +5 point something iirc.

We need to be able to score better even with the best defense. The best teams in the league have top offenses and top defenses. Our offense is a long long long way from the top

 

[NAOS]

I think Rodney Hood can be a 23+ ppg scorer. Efficiently. And I think he can do that within read-option style sets that get others involved. And, I think Exum will be able to contribute to good offense.

^When you pair this with elite defense, then the future could still be bright.

 

[Stoked]

David Locke brought up a valid point tonight that I will get to in a minute. Right now, in the West, teams and their stars shake out like this:

GS: Curry, Thompson, Green (as good as Curry is, and he is great, having three stars vs every one else's two puts GS on another level)
SA: Leonard, Aldrich
OKC: Westbrook, Durant
LAC: Paul, Griffin
Portland: Lillard
Houston: Howard, Harden
Kings: Cousins
Pelicans: Davis
Timberwolves: Towns

There are NINE teams that have legit stars on their teams. We don't have one.

And no. Hayward isn't on the level of any of the players above. And Gobert is not on Hayward's level.

The Jazz are in a big hole talent wise, which is what Locke's point was. He said that we just expect Utah to make the playoffs next year, but the reality is, Sacramento, NO and Minnesota have the three best bigs in the NBA.

With Minnesota hiring Thibbs, I'd be on them making the playoffs over Utah next year. They have star talent. We don't.

If Exum doesn't become a Lillard level player, we might not make the playoffs for a long, long time.

You guys stupidly mock me for suggesting trades for players like Love, but if we don't get a star, we are not going anywhere soon. We don't have a star and the closest thing we have to a star is Hayward...and he has taken us nowhere. He is a very, very good player. Just not a good enough player.

We need a star. I'd trade Favors, Hood, Burks, and our pick for Cousins.

I'd trade Favors, Burks, Burke and our pick for Love.

I'd trade anyone for Harden. I'd trade our whole team for Towns.

If we don't get a star, we ain't going nowhere. It is what it is. This is the NBA and unless you have a star, you don't have a future.

Not no but hell no. Love won't carry a team and Cousins has proven that he is not a winner. You have a solid point but those two players I bolded are not who you go for. They will not cut it.

Also if the Jazz fail to make the playoffs this upcoming season then this rebuild was a failure and you have to start planning and changing the roster based on that instead of building around it.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think Rodney Hood can be a 23+ ppg scorer. Efficiently. And I think he can do that within read-option style sets that get others involved. And, I think Exum will be able to contribute to good offense.

^When you pair this with elite defense, then the future could still be bright.

Agreed

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Let's say the jazz have the #1 defense in the league and hold opponents to 92 points per game... But the jazz only score 95 per game with their lack of offense, spacing issues, and snails pace. Well that's great. That means we have a +3 point differential. Which ain't bad (this year we were +1.5 or so).

The warriors and spurs were over +10 in point differential. The cavs were over +6. Raptors were like +5 point something iirc.

We need to be able to score better even with the best defense. The best teams in the league have top offenses and top defenses. Our offense is a long long long way from the top

People are talking about trading away our defense to improve offense, though. I think it defeats the purpose. I agree with NAOS about Hood possible becoming an offensive stud for us, and we also have other options to improve the offense without trading away defense. For example, as much as I like Lyles and am now happy with that pick, I still think a shooter like Booker off the bench would have been a better
acquisition for this team, because you add offense without hurting the defense so much. And yes, I'm aware that Booker kinda sucks defensively as well, but I value strong defense from the 4/5 more than anywhere else.

It's kind of ironic to me how much Jazz fans bitched and moaned about players like Boozer and Big Al, but now that we have a 2-way player who happens to be a defensive stud, but isn't a star on the offensive side, they want to trade him away for the kind of player they used to complain so much about. I'm just going to say right now, if Favors hadn't had injury problems this year, I highly doubt fans would be talking about trading him away for a better offensive player who sucks at D.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Again, there is nothing wrong with the raptors/hawks as the jazz ceiling. Close to 60 wins (raptors were 1 win from being the 1st seed and having home court throughout the playoffs) and getting into the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs?
Geez with some people it seems like if you don't say the jazz will be the best team in the league and win championships with the current roster within a few years then you are a pessimistic downer somehow.

Wasn't trying to be critical of you, Fish. I just think our ceiling is a little higher than those teams if we can stay healthy. Who knows if we get there though, since we can't seem to shake the injury problems.

 

[NAOS]

Wasn't trying to be critical of you, Fish. I just think our ceiling is a little higher than those teams if we can stay healthy. Who knows if we get there though, since we can't seem to shake the injury problems.

we'll shake them when we finally overhaul the roster and stock it full of Russian gymnasts.

 

[fishonjazz]

People are talking about trading away our defense to improve offense, though. I think it defeats the purpose. I agree with NAOS about Hood possible becoming an offensive stud for us, and we also have other options to improve the offense without trading away defense. For example, as much as I like Lyles and am now happy with that pick, I still think a shooter like Booker off the bench would have been a better
acquisition for this team, because you add offense without hurting the defense so much. And yes, I'm aware that Booker kinda sucks defensively as well, but I value strong defense from the 4/5 more than anywhere else.

It's kind of ironic to me how much Jazz fans bitched and moaned about players like Boozer and Big Al, but now that we have a 2-way player who happens to be a defensive stud, but isn't a star on the offensive side, they want to trade him away for the kind of player they used to complain so much about. I'm just going to say right now, if Favors hadn't had injury problems this year, I highly doubt fans would be talking about trading him away for a better offensive player who sucks at D.

I'm more about trading Hayward for an offensive stud rather than paying him max money or him leaving.

Keep favors and Gobert. Still have great defense.

 

[NAOS]

Keep favors and Gobert. Still have great defense.

I've said it too many times, but what the ****: Gobert + Favors does not equal a great defense. We have to address problems on the perimeter.

But, whatevs.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

yes so long as their borders with Utah remained the same.

Probably would have resulted in constant border wars. Thank God we got lucky that the shapes of all the states fit together so well. Within each state the same goes for the counties. Whoever originally assembled this puzzle must have been a genius.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I've said it too many times, but what the ****: Gobert + Favors does not equal a great defense. We have to address problems on the perimeter.

But, whatevs.

Hayward hood and Exum will start next year. Exum figures to be elite defensively Hayward is very underrated defensively. Hood isn't a beast defensively, but he's also not bad. I'm not sure what defensive problems that need addressing you're referring to?

 

[Stoked]

I've said it too many times, but what the ****: Gobert + Favors does not equal a great defense. We have to address problems on the perimeter.

But, whatevs.

On the defensive end Exum goes a long way towards that.

 

[fishonjazz]

I've said it too many times, but what the ****: Gobert + Favors does not equal a great defense. We have to address problems on the perimeter.

But, whatevs.

Maybe not but the point is that the jazz have lots of good defenders. Hayward, Exum, Gobert and favors all have all nba defensive team potential.

I don't see any elite scorers though. (Maybe hood gets there. Maybe not)