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Deron lumping himself in the same breath and kobe and lebron

I loved D-Will as much as the next guy when he was here, but let's face it, there were starting to be more and more red flags. I really started to re-evaluate my opinion of D-Will after the Hayward incident and it just seemed to spiral from there.

In the days after Jerry Sloan's resignation everybody affiliated with the Jazz were trying to say the right thing- that it wasn't Deron's fault. Some Jazz fans are still buying that, but I don't think I am anymore. The night Karl Malone showed up and basically put D-Will on blast, I wrote it off as Karl being Karl. But now, considering Deron was dealt a few days later and some of the lingering rumors of his locker room behavior, I believe Karl was right in just about everything he said.

Nobody will dispute Deron's talent, but I honestly believe that the team is breathing a sigh of relief that they no longer have to deal with his surliness or the Mello-like "will he or won't he" soap opera that was bound to come along with his contract situation.

The fact that KOC turned an unhappy D-Will into: Devin Harris, Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter and quite possibly another lottery pick in 2012 makes me think Utah's Front Office isn't missing Deron at all either. Again, he's a great talent and quite possibly the best PG in the NBA but I think because of his attitude, he is bound to play for multiple NBA teams and has a career that probably ends up being not as fulfilling as it should have been.
 
jazzman12 said:
I loved D-Will as much as the next guy when he was here, but let's face it, there were starting to be more and more red flags. I really started to re-evaluate my opinion of D-Will after the Hayward incident and it just seemed to spiral from there.

In the days after Jerry Sloan's resignation everybody affiliated with the Jazz were trying to say the right thing- that it wasn't Deron's fault. Some Jazz fans are still buying that, but I don't think I am anymore. The night Karl Malone showed up and basically put D-Will on blast, I wrote it off as Karl being Karl. But now, considering Deron was dealt a few days later and some of the lingering rumors of his locker room behavior, I believe Karl was right in just about everything he said.

Nobody will dispute Deron's talent, but I honestly believe that the team is breathing a sigh of relief that they no longer have to deal with his surliness or the Mello-like "will he or won't he" soap opera that was bound to come along with his contract situation.

The fact that KOC turned an unhappy D-Will into: Devin Harris, Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter and quite possibly another lottery pick in 2012 makes me think Utah's Front Office isn't missing Deron at all either. Again, he's a great talent and quite possibly the best PG in the NBA but I think because of his attitude, he is bound to play for multiple NBA teams and has a career that probably ends up being not as fulfilling as it should have been.
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Good post.
 
I really have never given a **** how ego-fied a player was. If they can play they can play. he had been a great ball player from the beginning and thats all I cared about, hes still a great player and I would love to have him in our jersey.
 
Deron is a franchise player. Yea he soured his fans in Utah by defying Sloan but he is good enough to compare himself to those guys. Some of the posts in this thread seem to be making him out to be DeShawn Stevenson, who really is an *******.

I remember Locke publishing "clutch" stats and D-Will was right up there with the big names at the top. When the game is on the line there are simply not very many players that are better. IMO as pissed as all Jazz fans are (and deservedly so) about how Deron handled 2010-11 it is silly to downplay how good he really is.
 
I read that story on ESPN. I don't see where Deron lumped himself in with Kobe and Lebron by simply talking about 'em. Not even close. It's a story about moves the players could do to undermine the owners in the lockout. In truth, that's a damn good idea from their perspective.
 
Brown Notes said:
Deron is a franchise player. Yea he soured his fans in Utah by defying Sloan but he is good enough to compare himself to those guys. Some of the posts in this thread seem to be making him out to be DeShawn Stevenson, who really is an *******.

I remember Locke publishing "clutch" stats and D-Will was right up there with the big names at the top. When the game is on the line there are simply not very many players that are better. IMO as pissed as all Jazz fans are (and deservedly so) about how Deron handled 2010-11 it is silly to downplay how good he really is.
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2010-2011 "Clutch" scoring numbers:https://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM This is a per/48 minutes of clutch time stat with clutch time defined as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points."

For his time in Utah last season Deron was way down the list. Tied with Daniel Gibson and Gerald Henderson. His shooting percentage in those situations was 42.9% with a 3 point% of 30.8%.

The top five were Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, the Cleveland version of Mo Williams, Lebron James and Monte Ellis. Deron was 72nd.

2009-2010 was actually even worse from an efficiency perspective. https://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

37.5% FG in the clutch and 21.4% on threes.

The top five were Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, and Nash. Deron was 63rd.

The moral of the story: David Locke is still paid by the Jazz to produce things that make them look good.
 
One more strike against Locke, I guess. Thanks for making me look like a moron David.

I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around those numbers though. Deron seriously was better last year than in '09-'10? I would have guessed that last season was the off year.
 
TheStormofWar said:
I read that story on ESPN. I don't see where Deron lumped himself in with Kobe and Lebron by simply talking about 'em. Not even close. It's a story about moves the players could do to undermine the owners in the lockout. In truth, that's a damn good idea from their perspective.
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You read the quote then right? He lumped himself in the same breath. Thats what i stated. Are you seriously that dense?
 
Brown Notes said:
One more strike against Locke, I guess. Thanks for making me look like a moron David.

I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around those numbers though. Deron seriously was better last year than in '09-'10? I would have guessed that last season was the off year.
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Small sample size problems tend to be magnified in Per 48 environments. What's telling though is that Deron's never been totally elite at this. 08-09 he was in the mid 20s with a good field goal percentage. The year before that he was 36th with low percentages again.
 
Oh jeez, seriously? You're seriously upset by this? He was talking about any big NBA star going to Europe, and Deron Williams is a big time NBA star. He was considered the best PG in the game as far back as a season ago.
 
Sirkickyass said:
In all honesty that's sort of unclear.

It could potentially put pressure on the owners but all it's going to take is a handful of bad experiences to make it obvious that playing stateside is better for everyone involved and actually weaken the players' position. For example: Some players that go overseas have a hard time actually getting paid because the owners are upset for one reason or another and essentially say "sue me." If that happened to even a single high-profile player and there as a public legal battle over non-payment the Euro option would be a significantly less credible threat than it is today.

As to the topic of Deron's standing in the league presently I don't think there's any real question he took a big step back last season. Personally I'd rate his performance as outside of the top-5 pgs in the leage last season (who were, in some order, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Rondo, and Paul), which would obviously take him pretty far away from the top 10 players in the whole league.
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I agree, it's very unclear. I left my comment open and perhaps I should have elaborated.

Moves like this can potentially put pressure on both sides. Yes, Deron and others could put pressure on owners by playing overseas. It shows they have other options besides the NBA, they could get hurt, etc. But it can also put pressure on the players union too, who are essentially leveraging lower paid players salaries to keep current CBA benefits intact. Even though Steven A is a douche, he makes a point none the less. A few high level players hopping the pond does weaken solidarity amongst fellow players. Not everyone will have the opportunity to play in Europe, and player who make less money will feel the squeeze of an extended lock out. The higher paid players, for the most part, will not experience the same pressure.

Chaos will get things moving. A stagnant standoff under the current conditions will do nothing to budge either side. No one knows how these decisions will effect the lock out, but rocking the boat is definitely good for the fans position, and that's all I care about.
 
Don't think he is lumping himself in with Lebron or Kobe. He is saying that if Europe had full seasons (e.g., 82 game seasons like the NBA) than Kobe and Lebron could probably make more Overseas than in US. He didn't say that about himself.
 
Also, when he said he see's it hard for some guys to come back to the NBA if the owner's get their way, he is saying if the owner's don't budge an inch. Obviously if a deal ever gets done, both sides are going to have to make compromises.
 
Sirkickyass said:
2010-2011 "Clutch" scoring numbers:https://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM This is a per/48 minutes of clutch time stat with clutch time defined as "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points."

For his time in Utah last season Deron was way down the list. Tied with Daniel Gibson and Gerald Henderson. His shooting percentage in those situations was 42.9% with a 3 point% of 30.8%.

The top five were Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, the Cleveland version of Mo Williams, Lebron James and Monte Ellis. Deron was 72nd.

2009-2010 was actually even worse from an efficiency perspective. https://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

37.5% FG in the clutch and 21.4% on threes.

The top five were Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Carmelo, and Nash. Deron was 63rd.

The moral of the story: David Locke is still paid by the Jazz to produce things that make them look good.
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Sorry to go off-topic, but I look at the clutch time stats from 2010-2011 (first link you posted) and I noticed this:

19. UTA Jefferson 40 170 13 +4 25.1 .562 0.0 .000 8.2 82% 34.9 52% 13.8 1.7 2.0 2.5 1.1

Not sure if this has ever been posted, but seeing as only Durant and Westbrook placed above him with more playing time in "clutch-time" I am very impressed. Also, I believe he is the most clutch center on that list.
 
Cyrone Torbin said:
Also, when he said he see's it hard for some guys to come back to the NBA if the owner's get their way, he is saying if the owner's don't budge an inch. Obviously if a deal ever gets done, both sides are going to have to make compromises.
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I wouldn't be suprised to see the NBA miss the entire season. I'm not saying it's likely, but I think the owners are dug in deep enough together and feel convinced that the economic model of the NBA is broken much like the NHL owners did when they sat out an entire year. I'm not saying Owners won't compromise a little, but I think most of the sacrifice is going to come from the players when it's all said and done.
 
anonymous832 said:
What the hell? How are you already "loving" what we got in return? Devin Harris was terrible (and a bad fit for the system, too), and Favors and Kanter are two completely unproven wild cards at this point. This just proves the blatant lack of perspective of so many people on these boards. If the package we got ultimately works out, that's fantastic - but rushing to judgment as if the pieces we got in exchange for Deron are already panning out and proving their worth is simply delusional. What we've gotten in return is, at present, absolutely nothing. We traded for potential, theoretical future success, and as of right now it's still just potential, and still just theoretical. We'll see.
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To play Devil's advocate, we got Harris, Favors, Kanter and the GS pick for FREE...unless you truly believe there was a chance Deron was going to stay in Utah. Yes, the Jazz traded an all-star for potential. But it was a hell of a swap. Deron was not going to help the Jazz any further in 2010/11; he was already hurt and his attitude and play had started the death spiral that turned a 27-13 record into a lottery pick. The move had to be made at some point, whether at the deadline, in the summer, or next seasion. With the uncertain of the labor situation (and given Deron's insubordination), KOC obviously felt getting a mid-level PG and 3 lottery picks was a sweet trade. IMO, it would have beem a good deal just getting Favors and Harris.

I wouldn't count out Harris just yet. Utah was in complete disarray when the trade went down. Harris had a new offense to learn, and only a couple of guys were even trying to run the plays. Jefferson never did learn the system, CJ was just in there to chuck up shots and Favors was new. Millsap and Hayward were the only to guys who looked like they new what they were doing. The last couple of weeks, the team - and Harris - looked a LOT better.

I'm not saying Devin = Deron or that Harris is a long-term solution. But Deron had turned into a cancer. Williams had stopped running the plays. He was holding the ball too long, walking it up court and then trying to showboat with his crossover. And the on-the-court altercation with Hayward was inexcusable. I'm sure Deron never made a mistake his rookie season. Deron IS one of the elite players in the league. Unfortunately, he has a top-10 ego to match. Maybe he wins a championship or two. Personally, I don't care. I've been a Jazz fan for a long time. And I'm glad he's gone. I had begun to sour on his petulant behavior even before last season.
 
GlassEater said:
To play Devil's advocate, we got Harris, Favors, Kanter and the GS pick for FREE...unless you truly believe there was a chance Deron was going to stay in Utah. Yes, the Jazz traded an all-star for potential. But it was a hell of a swap. Deron was not going to help the Jazz any further in 2010/11; he was already hurt and his attitude and play had started the death spiral that turned a 27-13 record into a lottery pick. The move had to be made at some point, whether at the deadline, in the summer, or next seasion. With the uncertain of the labor situation (and given Deron's insubordination), KOC obviously felt getting a mid-level PG and 3 lottery picks was a sweet trade. IMO, it would have beem a good deal just getting Favors and Harris.

I wouldn't count out Harris just yet. Utah was in complete disarray when the trade went down. Harris had a new offense to learn, and only a couple of guys were even trying to run the plays. Jefferson never did learn the system, CJ was just in there to chuck up shots and Favors was new. Millsap and Hayward were the only to guys who looked like they new what they were doing. The last couple of weeks, the team - and Harris - looked a LOT better.

I'm not saying Devin = Deron or that Harris is a long-term solution. But Deron had turned into a cancer. Williams had stopped running the plays. He was holding the ball too long, walking it up court and then trying to showboat with his crossover. And the on-the-court altercation with Hayward was inexcusable. I'm sure Deron never made a mistake his rookie season. Deron IS one of the elite players in the league. Unfortunately, he has a top-10 ego to match. Maybe he wins a championship or two. Personally, I don't care. I've been a Jazz fan for a long time. And I'm glad he's gone. I had begun to sour on his petulant behavior even before last season.
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/Thread
 
Geez all you DW haters are the same guys who are AK apologists. AK did worse things than DW ever did and half the state of Utah still wants to re-sign AK. DW did not lump himself with anyone. He is being very smart. He has options and the owners don't think NBA players have options. If enough guys go over to Europe and Asia then the owners are going to have a problem. I think most NBA would prefer playing in the NBA but if the owners are going to low-ball the players then they have other options. DW is a smart guy and he is doing what is best for his business which is playing basketball.
 
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