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Tough Day To Be In Law Enforcement

Which church in Phoenix do you go to? I literally just did the sermon at Valley Unitarian Universalist last Sunday.

And let's get real - no one cares what happens to the people in Scottsdale. :p

Next time you help lead a service, let me know. I’d be interested in “attending.”
 
Totally agree that white people should be looking to have conversations with black friends, family, and neighbors. I respectfully disagree that anyone's opinion doesn't matter. Respectful conversation and honesty about the problems in our society are always a good thing. A one sided conversation is unlikely to bring about any real change. Black and Brown voices should be amplified to ensure their voices are heard and everyone should be listening. Plenty of white public figures have been criticized recently for NOT publicly declaring their support, commentary, or condolences for George Floyd (James Dolan is one that I read about today). Can't have it both ways. Either white people can or can't express their opinion. Plus, this is Jazzfanz. How long would this thread actually be if white people shouldn't express their thoughts?

I had a great conversation with a black friend that lives in my neighborhood (we also attend church together). I was lucky to run into him in our neighborhood park, as we haven't seen each other in months. We live in Phoenix and there have been some significant riots occurring. He expressed his anger at the riots and looting occurring at the Scottsdale mall (reportedly over a million dollars in damages). He also had to talk to his sons (3) about the death of George Floyd, and the inherent racism in our policing and justice system. He's both former military and law enforcement, so I think he has a unique perspective. The conversation was great, and we have grown closer as friends from it. It also prompted me to have a talk with my young kids about racism in America.

I do personally wish more of the conversation centered around actual solutions. How do we minimize, to the extent possible, unnecessary deaths at the hands of law enforcement? How do we make sure police officers are not racist? Is that even possible? I've previously recommended mandatory body cameras at all times. Video records should be made publicly available whenever a significant event occurs (death, injury, firearm discharge). In fact, I think video should be made available to anyone who requests it that has had an interaction with law enforcement. How do we minimize the number of people incarcerated in this country, specifically black Americans?

I also wish there was more quality conversation on how to help bring more black people out of poverty. Conversations driven by reason, and not emotion. Despite an astounding number of attempts by the government, not much has changed in this regard in the last 60 years. How can we create a future with more black business owners, lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc?

My fear is that this conversation will slowly fade away, and people will go back to their normal lives and not change anything. Let's hope some actual change comes from this, and that it leads us to a better place.

Really good post. Agreed on the body cams. So I’d say:

*Better pay (bigger increases in some areas more than others) to attract more candidates—somewhere in the 5-12% range
*4 year college degree with a minimum gpa requirement
*More challenging para-military like academies like those State Troopers (at least here in NJ) endure
*Better background checks, including all social media and former girlfriends or boyfriends, which I think would be quite telling
*Annual (maybe even bi-annual) physical, academic, and psychological testing
*Mandatory community service within their jurisdiction side by side with community members—this could go a LONG way and is crucial imo in bridging a gap. If a cop works 150 days a year (ballpark), I’d say 5-10 of those should be community service days. This is a must.
*Small bonuses for no complaints by citizens, that can increase each year, if zero complaints continues—Sort of like some car insurance companies do if one has no claims
*Mandatory body cams on all officers—if an officer “never turned it on,” an automatic loss of pay for a certain time period OR simply have it set up in a way that an officer doesn’t even have to turn it on. It’s simply on 24/7. This would mean departments might have to drastically upgrade servers or pay more to an outside service for more space. IDK.
*Truly independent teams to investigate any complaints against officers

We live in an imperfect world. We always will. There will always be racist cops. I think this would go a long way though in weeding some out, minimize negative action by those with latent racist feelings, hold cops more accountable, and create an actual relationship between cops and the community.

Everything costs money. If this country wants to truly advance as a nation, we need to spend money. Whether that comes from corporations being taxed more (some) or not is a whole nother issue.
 
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Really good post. Agreed on the body cams. So I’d say:

*Better pay (bigger increases in some areas more than others) to attract more candidates—somewhere in the 5-12% range
*4 year college degree with a minimum gpa requirement
*More challenging para-military like academies like those State Troopers (at least here in NJ) endure
*Better background checks, including all social media and former girlfriends or boyfriends, which I think would be quite telling
*Annual (maybe even bi-annual) physical, academic, and psychological testing
*Mandatory community service within their jurisdiction side by side with community members—this could go a LONG way and is crucial imo in bridging a gap. If a cop works 150 days a year (ballpark), I’d say 5-10 of those should be community service days. This is a must.
*Small bonuses for no complaints by citizens, that can increase each year, if zero complaints continues—Sort of like some car insurance companies do if one has no claims
*Mandatory body cams on all officers—of an officer “never turned it on,” an automatic loss of pay for a certain time period OR simply have it set up in a way that an officer doesn’t even have to turn it on. It’s simply on 24/7.
*Truly independent teams to investigate any complaints against officers

We live in an imperfect world. We always will. There will always be racist cops. I think this would go a long way though in weeding some out, minimize negative action by those with latent racist feelings, hold cops more accountable, and create an actual relationship between cops and the community.

Everything costs money. If this country wants to truly advance as a nation, we need to spend money. Whether that comes from corporations being taxed more (some) or not is a whole nother issue.
Great post. I think the community service one is big especially.
 
Looks like Esper is already backtracking.



and for good reason, his original excuse didn’t hold any crap I mean water:

 
I didn’t see any of the looters. But do you believe I have any supposition on the race of the looter, or care if they’re black or white?

It's a very quick sequence in the middle. The camera follows him briefly.

It casts a rather different light on "For all the white people saying to just shut up and listen, and for failing to distinguish between protest and riot, or to even suggest its offensive and silencing to even make such a distinction, how many of these individuals is it appropriate to sacrifice to make that voice heard?" There was no voice struggling to be heard hear, just some opportunistic *** who was confronted by one of the voices struggling to be heard.

My position is simple:

There’s a lot of peaceful protest and then there’s rioting and looting.

It's an error to conflate rioting with looting, or even lump all the rioting together as the same thing. Much of the rioting is a response to the aggressive police tactics used during the protests. Such rioting is legitimate.

I agree it's proper to condemn the unprovoked vandalism and the looting. However, when you make the category error of confusing a response to police tactics with unprovoked violence, then you naturally leave yourself open to being criticized about your opines on the former using language appropriate to the latter.

But there’s a very ironic racism that underlies that, one that views African Americans as savages.

We're all savages. Some of us just have less reason to hold the savage in.

So while one may believe it is the ultimate sign of contrition to extend “shut up and listen” to the violence, notice that their words are much more enabling than the words of so many black leaders, among them President Obama. And if the backdrop of everything is the inherent power and privilege of white America, what better way to facilitate further death and destruction than to have the white community “understand” the violence, and see more black homes destroyed, more black businesses going under, more black communities suffering, and more black people dying.

You make some good points here.
 
So you’re a small government kind of guy?
Not really. Government should really focus on social programs that help people, not police poor people into an endless cycle.

I would argue otherwise. I think we should pay to attract talent, not under pay for losers. Let’s take this job seriously and give them the resources they need to perform the job we’re asking them to do.

More training, screening, counseling, specialization, and implementation.


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I should clarify when I say defund I mean ending the drug war and scaling back on spending for things like guns/cars/swat gear/etc.

If you want to increase funding to make the job more attractive and safe, then I guess that's OK as long as the cost are offset by giving them less money to spend.

*Maybe the term I should have used is demilitarize*
 
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Great ideas and comments in this thread. But what are YOU going to do to change things? Has anyone here protested? Have you donated? How are you going to use your privilege for good, instead of just telling other what you think needs to happen?

All these ideas are great, but what are gonna do to affect change?


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It's a very quick sequence in the middle. The camera follows him briefly.

It casts a rather different light on "For all the white people saying to just shut up and listen, and for failing to distinguish between protest and riot, or to even suggest its offensive and silencing to even make such a distinction, how many of these individuals is it appropriate to sacrifice to make that voice heard?"

Does it? The violence and riot that people are seeing as being insensitive and tone-deaf to vocalize concern for aren't certain who's actually causing said violence, and their unspoken assumption is that it's the black communities themselves, hence we need to "listen" to them. So no, it doesn't matter if the individual(s) who killed this man is/are black or white because it's being painted with the same broad brush of "let's just listen."

There was no voice struggling to be heard hear, just some opportunistic ***
I'd argue that framing this guy's murderer as "just some opportunistic ***" would be very generous, if not insensitive, dismissive, and insulting.

It's an error to conflate rioting with looting, or even lump all the rioting together as the same thing. Much of the rioting is a response to the aggressive police tactics used during the protests. Such rioting is legitimate.
And what of what's being perceived as being condemned in these threads has condemned that?

I agree it's proper to condemn the unprovoked vandalism and the looting. However, when you make the category error of confusing a response to police tactics with unprovoked violence, then you naturally leave yourself open to being criticized about your opines on the former using language appropriate to the latter.
Again see above. What's actually being condemned? If someone's conflating those, who's doing it? Either people have condemned the things you're suggesting they shouldn't (or at least that you propose there may be more nuance available for) or people are interpreting certain condemnations as blanket condemnation on different actions.

BabyPeterzz had offered similar thoughts, stating that he was seeing too much finger pointing and judgment. I tried to ask for clarification if he saw finger pointing and judgment of protest. He would answer that question, and that's his prerogative, but if people are seeing others speaking against unprovoked violence and destruction and assume that they're condemning protestors, then the conflation of senseless violence with protest belongs to them, and it may be something worth self-examination for what it may highlight about their beliefs regarding these black communities.
 
Does it? The violence and riot that people are seeing as being insensitive and tone-deaf to vocalize concern for aren't certain who's actually causing said violence, and their unspoken assumption is that it's the black communities themselves, hence we need to "listen" to them. So no, it doesn't matter if the individual(s) who killed this man is/are black or white because it's being painted with the same broad brush of "let's just listen."


I'd argue that framing this guy's murderer as "just some opportunistic ***" would be very generous, if not insensitive, dismissive, and insulting.


And what of what's being perceived as being condemned in these threads has condemned that?


Again see above. What's actually being condemned? If someone's conflating those, who's doing it? Either people have condemned the things you're suggesting they shouldn't (or at least that you propose their may be more nuance available for) or people are interpreting certain condemnations as blanket condemnation on different actions.

BabyPeterzz had offered similar thoughts, stating that he was seeing too much finger pointing and judgment. I tried to ask for clarification if he saw finger pointing and judgment of protest. He would answer that question, and that's his prerogative, but if people are seeing others speaking against unprovoked violence and destruction and assume that they're condemning protestors, then the conflation of senseless violence with protest belongs to them, and it may be something worth self-examination for what it may highlight about their beliefs regarding these black communities.

I think getting caught up in the details and trying to pick things apart so it can be better understood results in missing the point of this event.

It’s like a virus. Are you gonna get better by analyzing each symptom and taking meds for each one, not going to the hospital to get diagnosed and properly treated? No. You go to the doctor and do what’s needed to get better.

When I get specific questions about who’s condemning what, quite frankly it’s a waste of my time right now. It’s not where my head is at, and definitely not where the heads who are fighting for justice are at right now either.

I would answer all the questions you asked me, but honestly it’s not a conversation worth taking time from the real issues we’re facing.


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Great ideas and comments in this thread. But what are YOU going to do to change things? Has anyone here protested? Have you donated? How are you going to use your privilege for good, instead of just telling other what you think needs to happen?

All these ideas are great, but what are gonna do to affect change?


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What have you personally done?
 
I think getting caught up in the details and trying to pick things apart so it can be better understood results in missing the point of this event.

L oh ****ing L dude. I know you mean well but if you want actual realistic and measurable change you cant base your decisions off your feelings and gut instinct. You need measurable data and facts to help correct the real issues which you get from breaking down the details.
 
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I think getting caught up in the details and trying to pick things apart so it can be better understood results in missing the point of this event.

It’s like a virus. Are you gonna get better by analyzing each symptom and taking meds for each one, not going to the hospital to get diagnosed and properly treated? No. You go to the doctor and do what’s needed to get better.

When I get specific questions about who’s condemning what, quite frankly it’s a waste of my time right now. It’s not where my head is at, and definitely not where the heads who are fighting for justice are at right now either.

I would answer all the questions you asked me, but honestly it’s not a conversation worth taking time from the real issues we’re facing.


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And that's fine. But when your premise is that people are condemning protestors, it may be worth wondering if anyone has condemned or been judgmental of protestors (they haven't -- you're literally witnessing something that everyone supports) and if conflating condemnation of senseless violence and destruction (against the black communities) are one-in-the-same. This may not be something that you feel is on your mind, but it's on your mind enough to be distressed about seeing what you perceive as judgment and condemnation.

But if you're not wanting to engage that idea with other things on your mind, I'm fine with no further engagement.
 
What have you personally done?

Protested, again tonight. I chose my job specifically to help address these issues. It’s my life’s passion. My work will be immersed in this now. I’ve donated, talked to my black friends and colleagues. Talking to my white friends and encouraging exactly what I’ve been posting on this site for years now.

Always listening, trying to understand my place in all this and standing ready to speak out and act appropriately.


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