Trade deadline discussion

[Handlogten's Heros]

I’m not clamoring for Holiday or anything, but this is the kind of thing where you’re completely hamstrung by emptying your cupboards entirely of all second round picks gratuitously. And the “lolz you can just buy seconds on darft night” proves laughable.

The lolz group are the best... cuz they will lolz you when you suggest trading a second for a backend rotation piece but then they will also lolz you when we trade a second to save some cash. They win no matter what.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Smart’s flaws are pretty big and definitely underplayed here, but in my mind the real way around that is having to have him be. Royce replacement and not necessarily a JC replacement. He needs Royce’s role and then Royce needs to step back to the bench and fill JC’s role (well, not his role, but you know what I mean). If Smart were just plugged in to JC’s role then it would only give us about 25% of what we could get out of that trade and I don’t know that Quin is up for making the change to get to the 100%.

I think you only play Smart at the 3 situationally, not full-time. I think he'd work off the bench, understanding:
1 - You can still play him 30 minutes
2 - He doesn't have to take on JC's ROLE

I'd be open to having him close games depending on how things play out, but grabbing him with the plan and expectation that he can guard up like that for 30 minutes a game is unwise.

In any case, we need more grit, defense, and mother-****er in a desperate way. Way too much fake chill, way too little toughness for a team even pretending to be a contender. And Smart might be the only guy with the stones and the chops to bust everyone on the roster's *** top to bottom when it's needed. And it is needed.

 

[infection]

So here is the deal... JC and Smart are both kind of "eye of the beholder" guys. Their value could be negative with some teams and some teams would love them. I've heard some Boston folks say they aren't trading Marcus unless they get bowled over because he is the heart and soul of the team. He also had fights with Tatum and Brown and has called those guys out... so if they sell him off cheaper than we think then it is because that relationship isn't great imo.

The reason we will be the team that pays more is because we are a little more desperate to make "fetch" happen. They are likely looking at this as a slight pivot year and if the return in a trade is "meh" then they will pass.

The reasons I like Smart are things that go beyond the spreadsheet. They might be a bunch of hippy dippy bologna. He's a good defender but even good defenders get torched in the NBA. He's a good blend of lock down defender and help defender... but the main reason we need him is he's a competitive ******* that will fight everyone. Not sure if you watch Yellowstone... but if not I recommend it (its an after the kids go to bed show... and the wife may not be cool with it). Smart would be our Beth. The pot stirrer that fights everyone (including her own family), is not afraid to get dirty, but is fiercely loyal and comes from a good spot. We need that energy guy... who isn't above flopping for a foul... who will irritate other players... who might even fight his own teammates if he thinks they are being lazy or selfish. He straddles the line... which is exactly what we need. I think that can change the identity of a team.

I also think both JC and Smart are inefficient... but the ways they do it are different. JC does it while dribbling the **** out of the ball and I think it really hurts the guys he is on the court with... Smart is actually a ball mover... he might wake Joe up or we might get more from Rudy Gay because the ball is moving.

I won't trade Bogey for Smart unless there is other stuff coming back and we have a trade lined up for Harrison Barnes or Kenrich Williams or some other good replacement. If it is JC and a somewhat fake first (lotto protected from 2026 to 2028) then we may just have to do it. I think Smart has value if we moved him later down the road (unless he gets hurt). I don't think he ever becomes an unmovable contract just based on play.

Hopefully we get something while it is on sale... I think Smart would have more admirers than JC... so I think we likely have to pay retail or a slight premium. They have more time than us.

If, as per my post above, we moved Smart into Royce’s role, then I’d be willing to overpay despite potential cap collateral later on. But if it’s as I’d suspect and Quin would just use Smart off the bench or only close with him in place of someone who’s not Royce, then it’s going to be silly and only marginally raise our ceiling. Getting more production from Royce’s heavy minutes is a huge blind spot and Smart would give us everything we would want there and I don’t believe his offensive limitations or inefficiency would be that big of a deal of what he is replacing is Royce, even if Royce is very efficient on very low usage.

 

[infection]

The lolz group are the best... cuz they will lolz you when you suggest trading a second for a backend rotation piece but then they will also lolz you when we trade a second to save some cash. They win no matter what.

They get a commission on every outgoing second rounder except ones that net a player and not money.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Smart’s flaws are pretty big and definitely underplayed here, but in my mind the real way around that is having to have him be. Royce replacement and not necessarily a JC replacement. He needs Royce’s role and then Royce needs to step back to the bench and fill JC’s role (well, not his role, but you know what I mean). If Smart were just plugged in to JC’s role then it would only give us about 25% of what we could get out of that trade and I don’t know that Quin is up for making the change to get to the 100%.

You are looking at him in spreadsheet mode. You need to look at him in an emotional way. We have exactly 0% ******* on this roster... Smart brings so much of that to the table. Its nebulous magic beans stuff... its juice, toughness, will, heart and soul... that type of stuff.

The math may not work but he can flip the energy of a game and our energy has been so very lacking. Quin and everybody were shocked at how hard the scrubs played... it was jarring... it should not be. Smart is one of those guys that brings that regularly. He will miss some bad dumb shots... so does JC. He can actually make some good passes. Could this stuff be partly an issue with Quin and getting better effort out of guys? For sure... but if you don't bring it and Smart is on the court you will effing hear about it.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Jazz in: Marcus Smart, Robert Covington
Jazz out: Bojan Bogdanovic, Jordan Clarkson

Blazers in: Reggie Bullock, 2 second round picks from (Dallas, Boston)
Blazers out: Robert Covington

Celtics in: Bojan Bogdanovic
Celtics out: Marcus Smart and 2nd round pick

Mavs in: Jordan Clarkson
Mavs out: Reggie Bullock and 2nd round pick

Feels like you're trading out more offense than getting back in defense. Then again, Clarkson is actively losing the Jazz games half the time so maybe not.

 

[jom2003]

I mean, are there any legit rumors about us going after Smart? The Conley trade rumors were all over the Internet before the 2018/19 trade deadline......

 

[NUMBERICA]

I mean, are there any legit rumors about us going after Smart? The Conley trade rumors were all over the Internet before the 2018/19 trade deadline......

Define "legit". There is a ****-ton of smoke to this and the table is set for it. I think it is very legit.

 

[infection]

I think you only play Smart at the 3 situationally, not full-time. I think he'd work off the bench, understanding:
1 - You can still play him 30 minutes
2 - He doesn't have to take on JC's ROLE

I'd be open to having him close games depending on how things play out, but grabbing him with the plan and expectation that he can guard up like that for 30 minutes a game is unwise.

In any case, we need more grit, defense, and mother-****er in a desperate way. Way too much fake chill, way too little toughness for a team even pretending to be a contender. And Smart might be the only guy with the stones and the chops to bust everyone on the roster's *** top to bottom when it's needed. And it is needed.

I don’t think he’d play all of his minutes at the 3, just starting and closing minutes. We have to keep in mind this is relative to Royce, who is an inch and six lbs bigger than Smart. They both have a 6’9” wingspan.

 

[infection]

You are looking at him in spreadsheet mode. You need to look at him in an emotional way. We have exactly 0% ******* on this roster... Smart brings so much of that to the table. Its nebulous magic beans stuff... its juice, toughness, will, heart and soul... that type of stuff.

The math may not work but he can flip the energy of a game and our energy has been so very lacking. Quin and everybody were shocked at how hard the scrubs played... it was jarring... it should not be. Smart is one of those guys that brings that regularly. He will miss some bad dumb shots... so does JC. He can actually make some good passes. Could this stuff be partly an issue with Quin and getting better effort out of guys? For sure... but if you don't bring it and Smart is on the court you will effing hear about it.

That’s all good and whatnot, but our collapses will come in the last 5 minutes of the game, when he’s not playing. If he’s not being subbed in for Royce but someone else, then having Smart, Royce, and Gobert limits your offense. Basically the success of a potential Smart move is predicated on Quin loosening up on his Royce rigidity, which I would have significant doubts with.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If, as per my post above, we moved Smart into Royce’s role, then I’d be willing to overpay despite potential cap collateral later on. But if it’s as I’d suspect and Quin would just use Smart off the bench or only close with him in place of someone who’s not Royce, then it’s going to be silly and only marginally raise our ceiling. Getting more production from Royce’s heavy minutes is a huge blind spot and Smart would give us everything we would want there and I don’t believe his offensive limitations or inefficiency would be that big of a deal of what he is replacing is Royce, even if Royce is very efficient on very low usage.

JC's role did not exist before JC. The primary reason for it being JC for Smart is that you can't have both of those guys on the same roster imo. Even if Smart takes like 75% of the offensive stuff JC did that leaves 25% for the other guys who are efficient. I also think he makes them slightly better... JC does not. JC might be the worst defender we have so the defensive difference would be significant.

I have some hot takes on Royce right now... I think he is legit hurt. I think House might be better than he is right now. I like House for the minimum more than Holiday and Craig for stuff. I think Royce's trade value now exceeds his on court value. I didn't think that in the past. I mention this because I am not above swapping Royce out for something else. I just don't want JC and Smart on the roster and if those aren't the principle players involved now you are doing 2-3 deals... which is fun as hell on the internet but never happens.

So if it is Smart... it needs to be JC for Smart. Someone gets "stuff" but not sure who.

 

[infection]

JC's role did not exist before JC. The primary reason for it being JC for Smart is that you can't have both of those guys on the same roster imo. Even if Smart takes like 75% of the offensive stuff JC did that leaves 25% for the other guys who are efficient. I also think he makes them slightly better... JC does not. JC might be the worst defender we have so the defensive difference would be significant.

I have some hot takes on Royce right now... I think he is legit hurt. I think House might be better than he is right now. I like House for the minimum more than Holiday and Craig for stuff. I think Royce's trade value now exceeds his on court value. I didn't think that in the past. I mention this because I am not above swapping Royce out for something else. I just don't want JC and Smart on the roster and if those aren't the principle players involved now you are doing 2-3 deals... which is fun as hell on the internet but never happens.

So if it is Smart... it needs to be JC for Smart. Someone gets "stuff" but not sure who.

No, I’m definitely saying JC for Smart, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t be limiting it to putting Smart into JC minutes. Smart would allow us to upgrade our main lineup, so long as Quin acquiesces with Royce and moves him to the bench, which I don’t think he will.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

That’s all good and whatnot, but our collapses will come in the last 5 minutes of the game, when he’s not playing. If he’s not being subbed in for Royce but someone else, then having Smart, Royce, and Gobert limits your offense. Basically the success of a potential Smart move is predicated on Quin loosening up on his Royce rigidity, which I would have significant doubts with.

The eff you talking about... Smart is definitely closing. That is the compromise with him not starting. I think it is easier to start in "right sized" lineups and get smaller during the game. The "death" lineup was what closed the games for GS. Quin would be insane not to close with Smart. Royce moves down to 25 minutes a game and you can do defense for offense subs if you have timeouts. Pull Bojan or Donovan out for Royce at times.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No, I’m definitely saying JC for Smart, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t be limiting it to putting Smart into JC minutes. Smart would allow us to upgrade our main lineup, so long as Quin acquiesces with Royce and moves him to the bench, which I don’t think he will.

Quin's love of Royce will not overcome the Marcus Smart affair. JC is removed end of games because he doesn't play well with others and offers limited off ball value.

 

[LoPo]

I like Smart because he fits now and he fits pretty much any iteration of this team. He fits next to Don, and he fits with Rudy. Like somebody else said, he's going to have value for a long time. We usually don't get his type of player here, and definitely don't get a guy like him signed as long as he is (unlike Covington).

 

[campaignist]

So here is the deal... JC and Smart are both kind of "eye of the beholder" guys. Their value could be negative with some teams and some teams would love them. I've heard some Boston folks say they aren't trading Marcus unless they get bowled over because he is the heart and soul of the team. He also had fights with Tatum and Brown and has called those guys out... so if they sell him off cheaper than we think then it is because that relationship isn't great imo.

The reason we will be the team that pays more is because we are a little more desperate to make "fetch" happen. They are likely looking at this as a slight pivot year and if the return in a trade is "meh" then they will pass.

The reasons I like Smart are things that go beyond the spreadsheet. They might be a bunch of hippy dippy bologna. He's a good defender but even good defenders get torched in the NBA. He's a good blend of lock down defender and help defender... but the main reason we need him is he's a competitive ******* that will fight everyone. Not sure if you watch Yellowstone... but if not I recommend it (its an after the kids go to bed show... and the wife may not be cool with it). Smart would be our Beth. The pot stirrer that fights everyone (including her own family), is not afraid to get dirty, but is fiercely loyal and comes from a good spot. We need that energy guy... who isn't above flopping for a foul... who will irritate other players... who might even fight his own teammates if he thinks they are being lazy or selfish. He straddles the line... which is exactly what we need. I think that can change the identity of a team.

I also think both JC and Smart are inefficient... but the ways they do it are different. JC does it while dribbling the **** out of the ball and I think it really hurts the guys he is on the court with... Smart is actually a ball mover... he might wake Joe up or we might get more from Rudy Gay because the ball is moving.

I won't trade Bogey for Smart unless there is other stuff coming back and we have a trade lined up for Harrison Barnes or Kenrich Williams or some other good replacement. If it is JC and a somewhat fake first (lotto protected from 2026 to 2028) then we may just have to do it. I think Smart has value if we moved him later down the road (unless he gets hurt). I don't think he ever becomes an unmovable contract just based on play.

Hopefully we get something while it is on sale... I think Smart would have more admirers than JC... so I think we likely have to pay retail or a slight premium. They have more time than us.

Great post. I’ll admit I’ve been a little desperate to acquire Smart, because there are some distinct drawbacks that I have been ignoring, but he is such a unique player that it’s really hard to qualify.

His individual skill on defense is obvious, but what I’ve noticed and I don’t think is necessarily obvious is that he is kind of the guy who runs their defense, in the way that normal guys run the offense. He reads and anticipates the offense extremely well, so you can watch him route and get the other players to the right spots. He could actually improve the performance on D from the rest of the team. He’s the definition of a point of attack defender.

But like you mentioned, possibly his best asset is just his personality. The guy plays the entire game like a pissed off honey badger, this team desperately needs some of that aggressiveness.

Let’s be clear, while he’s not completely inept at the 3 point line, he thinks he’s better at them than he is and shoots accordingly. He can run a pick and roll well and is a very good passer, but he is by no means a point guard, the way Conley or Rubio running the offense are. It’s why a lot of Boston fans want him gone. But getting him here could legitimately save this season and actually make a deep run in the playoffs possible.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I dont think Smart is that great of a fit. Actually kind of a ****** fit in a lot of ways, but he provides something the Jazz need. The fit is weird IMO.

He's a ****** off the dribble shooter.

He's a ****** scorer.

He's a ****** pick n roll player.

He's mediocre as a C&S player

His offensive basketball IQ is pretty poor for a guy who has as much usage as he does.

But he provides intensity and D and the Jazz do need it. Unless he's just super cheap I'm not a huge Smart fan. I think the Jazz would probably be better off just getting a guy who is net neutral on both ends to replace JC.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There will be nights where there is too much Marcus... it will happen... its kinda like JC that way. If we were the number 1 defense by a mile and had Marcus you might flip him for JC maybe... its just kind of the perfect one move balancing trade. And all the edgey stuff is stuff we have needed for a while.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I dont think Smart is that great of a fit. Actually kind of a ****** fit in a lot of ways, but he provides something the Jazz need. The fit is weird IMO.

He's a ****** off the dribble shooter.

He's a ****** scorer.

He's a ****** pick n roll player.

He's mediocre as a C&S player

His offensive basketball IQ is pretty poor for a guy who has as much usage as he does.

But he provides intensity and D and the Jazz do need it. Unless he's just super cheap I'm not a huge Smart fan. I think the Jazz would probably be better off just getting a guy who is net neutral on both ends to replace JC.

Didn't you say once if we had Marcus Smart instead of JC we'd win a championship?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Didn't you say once if we had Marcus Smart instead of JC we'd win a championship?

I searched my name and post with Smart and Championship in it and got nothing.

I dont think I've ever been super Pro-Smart. I'm just very Anti-JC right now.

My position for the last few months has just been replace JC with a net neutral player and that remains the case.

If Smart is free (like JC swap straight up) then I'd probably be OK risking it. But that probably isnt the case so it just makes more sense to me to do a smaller move.