Reasons you left the LDS church.

[Jazz Spazz]

I earned a degree from BYU some time back. I knew many LDS people who did not truly believe in the tenants of their religion, but they were as unquestionably LDS as those with strong conviction. People simply believe what their parents believe. In political science, it is a widely known fact that ideological socialization(IS) is acquired overwhelmingly through the immediate family. The percentage is high enough to spawn entire sub-fields trying to find out how else is ideology acquired(as obviously many people break away from their parents beliefs). Being part of a community affects almost all aspects of one's life. Like someone mentioned above, he sticks with the system simply because he believes it strengthens his family and imparts good morals on his children. In reality, of course, he's judging those virtues through his own IS. I for an example, do not think that Christian moral ideals are as desirable as secular ones. Thus, I would not value the part religion would play on their imparting.

Breaking away not only forces a whole new paradigm on a member of a species that values stasis over flux, but also requires giving up many important things. Most communities, even tolerant ones, have prejudices against dissenters, and changing views is in practice ostracism from one's niche.

What I'm trying to say is that specifics on why someone leaves are, in a way, irrelevant. Every person has doubts on the truthfulness of one's own ideology. Rejection of an ideology happens when whatever brain mechanism is responsible for evaluating information decides the downsides of leaving a religion are preferable to sticking with it. The actual intellectual justification for leaving typically evolve significantly, after the departure.

While I think I understand what you are saying, to me that is all that is relevant. While you may be right about the big picture, when I am dealing with people I choose to zoom in and focus on one person at a time. With each person, the specifics are all that matters. If looking at the big picture as I think you are, specifics may not be that important. I use "may" because I'm not informed enough to know one way or another, but I trust you. I do wonder though that whatever brain mechanism is responsible for evaluating information might care about the specifics in order to make whatever decision is made. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Siro]

While I think I understand what you are saying, to me that is all that is relevant. While you may be right about the big picture, when I am dealing with people I choose to zoom in and focus on one person at a time. With each person, the specifics are all that matters. If looking at the big picture as I think you are, specifics may not be that important. I use "may" because I'm not informed enough to know one way or another, but I trust you. I do wonder though that whatever brain mechanism is responsible for evaluating information might care about the specifics in order to make whatever decision is made. Just thinking out loud.

If the actual specifics mattered, then everyone would believe the same thing given the same information (since our brains are very similar). I was raised in a modestly religious community. I was never really a deep believer, but I was fairly observant as that was what was expected of me. As I got older, I started developing a general dislike of the religious outlook, and began to question some of tenets, trying to find alternative views. Finding whichever views suite you is easy in a religious community, as you can discard undesirable outlooks and adopt others. But I remained a passive believer until I moved to a different continent, with different views. Not having any ties to my original community, leaving the religion behind was simple.

Had you asked me my reasons then, I probably would have given you a general description of the tenets I specially disagreed with, and a vague philosophical justification. Having been an unbeliever for so long, I can write several books on why I do not believe. The main reasons I am an unbeliever now have very little to do with why I originally "lost faith".

I think it would be better to explore the environmental factors that made such disbelief feasible, instead of focusing on specific reasons.

 

[Hantlers]

Why is it irrational to neg rep a post which had very little to do with the topic of the thread and whose sole purpose was to slam my church?

It actually had everything to do with the topic and was my opinion. I'm sorry if you view it as a slam, but it is my opinion that the LDS church is fake.

 

[Siro]

It actually had everything to do with the topic and was my opinion. I'm sorry if you view it as a slam, but it is my opinion that the LDS church is fake.

A random guy gave you neg rep! Big deal. I got like 200 of them.

 

[Hantlers]

A random guy gave you neg rep! Big deal. I got like 200 of them.

The rep doesn't bug me that much, the reasons behind it do.

 

[colton]

It actually had everything to do with the topic and was my opinion. I'm sorry if you view it as a slam, but it is my opinion that the LDS church is fake.

So if someone starts a thread asking for reasons why people have left the Catholic church (just to pick one at random), it's completely on topic for me to chime in with a "I won't join the Catholic church because I think it's fake" post? Hmm...

 

[The Thriller]

I personally think that prayer is one of the hardest things to deal with when it comes to religion. So often the scriptures or spiritual people talk about instances where they were faced with a problem, prayed about it, and received powerful responses. Of course, these accounts usually leave out great details that we sometimes need/want....

I wonder how often our prayers are answered and we just don't know it? Answered at times that I wasn't paying attention or in ways that I didn't expect.

Personally, I think prayer is especially tough since Mormons are taught to "talk" to god. Unfortunately, I've never had a "conversation" in the typical way that we'd describe a conversation. When most of us converse, we speak, then we listen to another person speaking.

However, how rare is this the case with god? I think most religious philosophers even admit that you will more often "think" or "feel" an answer far more often than you'll hear a verbal response.

Prayer is difficult indeed. And understandably one of the greatest detractors for religion. You're sold that "whenever" you need help, all ya gotta do is cross your arms and "pray." Then, when you don't receive the response that you were advertised, it's easy to just throw your arms up in the air and leave it.

Was the prayer answered? Was it the correct response? Did I not just realize that it was an answer? Or was I not paying attention or in tune with it? Or was I unworthy of the response? Or is the response still in queue waiting to be delivered upon god's will or my obedience/progression?

 

[Agoxlea]

So if someone starts a thread asking for reasons why people have left the Catholic church (just to pick one at random), it's completely on topic for me to chime in with a "I won't join the Catholic church because I think it's fake" post? Hmm...

I grew up LDS even though I haven't attended in years, and am definitely ok with Mormonism. As far as religion goes it makes as much as/more sense than others. I don't get why other religions give Mormonism so much flack. That last part was besides the point. I'm not trying to slam your religion, I've seen how it benefits those who believe in it, but I don't believe in it and think so same benefits/values can be achieved without religion. It isn't just Mormonism, but I think all religion is fake. That isn't to say religion is a bad thing, but to me personally it is all make believe.

I looked through a couple times for Hantler's post and didn't see what he was saying that seemed like a "slam" so I might be defending something ridiculous, but I think it is possible to think that religion is fake without slamming it. Wouldn't you agree that, at least to you and most Mormons, all other (especially non-christian) religions are fake? Yet at the same time I'm sure there are many Mormons who see the value in religions such as Islam, Catholicism, or Judaism while at the same time thinking they are fake.

All atheists by definition think all religions are fake. I'm positive that Mohammed, The Buddha, Jesus and Joseph Smith all were real people. I'm also aware Jesus is the only alleged deity in that group. I'm willing to accept the historical accounts of their lives as fact, although I'm sure not all atheists would. If I don't believe in God, how can I believe Joseph Smith could directly communicate with him? Saying it is fake doesn't have to be a slam, although I do acknowledge the negative connotation attached to the word "fake".

TL DR;
I think your religion and all religion is fake, but that doesn't mean I think it is a bad thing, that I'm slamming it, or that I don't see the positive aspects of said religion.

 

[Agoxlea]

Apparently pointing out facts = self righteous superiority complex. Take a breath there big fella.

1) To say the least you are stretching to claim that your statement was fact. It was more of an opinion. I think there are very few people that are actually anti-lds on the board, but I could be wrong.

2) That comment wasn't specifically what prompted my "self righteous" comment, but unless I'm confusing you for another poster it was easy to read your post that way due to several previous posts. This seemed like an appropriate thread to call you out on it. I'll update shortly with examples, otherwise I guess I'll concede that I totally jumped the gun.

 

[Agoxlea]

So we agree it is criminally irresponsible. I don't think that should be glossed over as it has moral implications as well as legal. But fine.

I think you're getting pretty defensive here. I don't give out free passes because someone does something great. Wrong is wrong. Like I said, I'd consider the behavior pathetic but not the person. You seem focused on that. Whatever.

Another analogy would be if a babysitter had great references and credentials but smoked weed twice a month on their own in their room. No way do I put that person in charge of my kids. Not a chance and any parent who does should be shanked. If that's you than yes, you should be shanked.

This is ONE example of your previous self righteous behavior that I believe warranted that response. Most Mormons aren't like that, but that attitude is very abrasive and the exact reason SOME people are anti-lds.

 

[Xsy]

I personally think that prayer is one of the hardest things to deal with when it comes to religion. So often the scriptures or spiritual people talk about instances where they were faced with a problem, prayed about it, and received powerful responses. Of course, these accounts usually leave out great details that we sometimes need/want....

I wonder how often our prayers are answered and we just don't know it? Answered at times that I wasn't paying attention or in ways that I didn't expect.

Personally, I think prayer is especially tough since Mormons are taught to "talk" to god. Unfortunately, I've never had a "conversation" in the typical way that we'd describe a conversation. When most of us converse, we speak, then we listen to another person speaking.

However, how rare is this the case with god? I think most religious philosophers even admit that you will more often "think" or "feel" an answer far more often than you'll hear a verbal response.

Prayer is difficult indeed. And understandably one of the greatest detractors for religion. You're sold that "whenever" you need help, all ya gotta do is cross your arms and "pray." Then, when you don't receive the response that you were advertised, it's easy to just throw your arms up in the air and leave it.

Was the prayer answered? Was it the correct response? Did I not just realize that it was an answer? Or was I not paying attention or in tune with it? Or was I unworthy of the response? Or is the response still in queue waiting to be delivered upon god's will or my obedience/progression?

Boy, if there's one thing I've heard too much from Mormons, 'pray about it' is probably it.

When I told my mom I wasn't sure if I believed in the church anymore, she said "Are you sure? Pray about it." So I did. And then I felt guilty because I'm apparently talking to God about leaving church, and I guilt myself into going back.

You're told that sometimes, your prayers are answered. For example, you pray to god for a job that you really want, and you get it. Your prayer was answered! In a similar situation, you pray to god, and you don't get the job-- but two weeks later, an even better job offer comes in. God works in mysterious ways.

Here's the thing I've discovered in four years without prayer-- good things happen anyway.

No matter what, good things happen. Its all about attitude. You don't need to rely on a God for confidence. You just need to believe in yourself.

 

[GoJazz]

I haven't "left" the church but I no longer believe. It started a long long time ago while in High School. I read the BoM and was taught by my parents if you read the book, pray about it, then you will know its true. I read the book and prayed and prayed and never got that "feeling". Beings as my parents are very LDS I just kind of went through the motions. When I turned 19 I didn't go on a mission despite tons of pressure to go from all directions.

While in school I studied Philosophy trying to find something that was true. I didn't really find anything. As I have continued in my life the church as sort of been something that my wife and I would occasionally do. Now that we have kids we do it more and more as they enjoy primary. I sit through classes just waiting for them to end as usually they are extremely boring or filled with semi crazy people going off about whatever the flavor of the month is.

I have serious issues with a few teachings of the church a few of which have been named here. There are also a lot more issues that haven't been named. But I can't say I hate or dislike the church or its teachings as the family part I do find very important and nice. For this reason and admittedly some social reason I choose to just stay in this illogical outskirts place with the church. We go sometimes we don't go others.

For me a relationship with God is more personal and less about a Church. I have kind of just come to the realization that being a good person, taking care of your family, and helping others is more important then trying to strictly obey the rules of the church. I have also realized that most members of the church have there own issues and that very few are 100% die hard believers as well.

So I guess that makes me an agnostic mormon or something like that.

 

[Scat]

Is Mormonism a real religion? Yes. It therefore cannot be fake. You may not believe the teachings are correct or true but Mormonism is a real religion and certainly not fake. I think this is the source of Colton's ire. To say it is fake would indicate that there is nothing real about his religion. That it is fake from top to bottom and that he is a fool for believing in any of it.

You would be better served to say that you don't believe what they teach is true. You know, crazy stuff like family unity, service to others and healthy living. That's some crazy *** **** right there!

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Is Mormonism a real religion? Yes. It therefore cannot be fake. You may not believe the teachings are correct or true but Mormonism is a real religion and certainly not fake. I think this is the source of Colton's ire. To say it is fake would indicate that there is nothing real about his religion. That it is fake from top to bottom and that he is a fool for believing in any of it.

You would be better served to say that you don't believe what they teach is true. You know, crazy stuff like family unity, service to others and healthy living. That's some crazy *** **** right there!

Or you could just believe in that stuff without all the other crazy *** **** attached. You know, the racism to blacks, crazy guy seeing things, etc.

 

[Agoxlea]

Is Mormonism a real religion? Yes. It therefore cannot be fake. You may not believe the teachings are correct or true but Mormonism is a real religion and certainly not fake. I think this is the source of Colton's ire. To say it is fake would indicate that there is nothing real about his religion. That it is fake from top to bottom and that he is a fool for believing in any of it.

You would be better served to say that you don't believe what they teach is true. You know, crazy stuff like family unity, service to others and healthy living. That's some crazy *** **** right there!

That's exactly why I clarified my definition of fake for 3 paragraphs. Family unity is great, but I don't believe families can be together after they die, because I don't believe in an afterlife. I think everyone should serve other, I don't know why religion has to be involved to get people to do it, but if that's what it takes then I'm glad people are doing something good. Healthy living is great too. Speaking of healthy, has anyone tried sage's cafe downtown? I'm moving there and looking for somewhere with some delicious vegan food. I'm not going to turn this into an argument like the definition of the word 'weapon', but I think it was clear what I was talking about when I said fake. I also acknowledge the negative connotations of the word, but I think you would have read my post you would know I'm not opposed to any of the good things that the members of the LDS church do. By saying that I think it is fake doesn't mean I don't think that members believe.

 

[LogGrad98]

This is ONE example of your previous self righteous behavior that I believe warranted that response. Most Mormons aren't like that, but that attitude is very abrasive and the exact reason SOME people are anti-lds.

So, disagreement with you = self-righteous? Or is it belief that morality in some form is important = self-righteous? Or is it belief that something that you agree with is immoral = self-righteous? I read statements of disagreement in what Conan said, but nothing truly self-righteous. He even said he wouldn't judge the person, but the behavior and make a call on that.

Like I said, I'd consider the behavior pathetic but not the person. You seem focused on that.

To me self-righteous is devaluing other people, not just what they believe in or agree with. I have no problem with people saying "mormonism is stupid, I hate mormonism, mormonism is wrong, mormonism is crazy", but to me it is self-righteous to say "mormons are stupid, mormons are crazy".

But we might have different definitions of that word.

 

[Hantlers]

Is Mormonism a real religion? Yes. It therefore cannot be fake. You may not believe the teachings are correct or true but Mormonism is a real religion and certainly not fake. I think this is the source of Colton's ire. To say it is fake would indicate that there is nothing real about his religion. That it is fake from top to bottom and that he is a fool for believing in any of it.

You would be better served to say that you don't believe what they teach is true. You know, crazy stuff like family unity, service to others and healthy living. That's some crazy *** **** right there!

Meh, most other "religions" teach that crazy stuff like family unity as well. My issue is how it seems like every 5 years there's a holy prophecy that allows things to change, ala the whole black people can join the church now. Or the fact that when Joseph Smith "wrote" the BoM it was filled with translation errors from the King James Bible at the time. I also find it interesting that Mormon's find a way to believe in both the Bible and the BoM, considering they have certain differing view points. Just my opinion though.

 

[CONAN]

This is ONE example of your previous self righteous behavior that I believe warranted that response. Most Mormons aren't like that, but that attitude is very abrasive and the exact reason SOME people are anti-lds.

Oh so you're a pothead. Now things are making sense. Nothing you quoted is self-righteous. Did it hit home and/or was it abrasive? That is more likely. But I don't see anywhere there where I said I was better than you. Keep trying though, Pothead. Looks like you've been waiting to unload on me for awhile lol.

 

[Agoxlea]

So, disagreement with you = self-righteous? Or is it belief that morality in some form is important = self-righteous? Or is it belief that something that you agree with is immoral = self-righteous? I read statements of disagreement in what Conan said, but nothing truly self-righteous. He even said he wouldn't judge the person, but the behavior and make a call on that.



To me self-righteous is devaluing other people, not just what they believe in or agree with. I have no problem with people saying "mormonism is stupid, I hate mormonism, mormonism is wrong, mormonism is crazy", but to me it is self-righteous to say "mormons are stupid, mormons are crazy".

But we might have different definitions of that word.

Maybe I've known too many people like that in my life and I'm just projecting, but to me Conan seems exactly like that specific self righteous type of Mormon. I don't think Mormons are stupid or crazy, but there is a small fraction of Mormons I find that are really smug about their moral high ground. Conan, to me, seems like one of those that is pretty smug about his beliefs. There are clearly a lot of LDS members in here and a lot of people that have a different set of morals than I, but I haven't called anyone self righteous except Conan. I'm not saying Mormons are self righteous. I'm saying Conan specifically seems that way to me.

 

[Agoxlea]

Oh so you're a pothead. Now things are making sense. Nothing you quoted is self-righteous. Did it hit home and/or was it abrasive? That is more likely. But I don't see anywhere there where I said I was better than you. Keep trying though, Pothead. Looks like you've been waiting to unload on me for awhile lol.

It's EXACTLY that smug attitude I'm talking about. That just happened to be an example where you claim your morals are better than others' morals.

self-right·eous   [self-rahy-chuhs, self-]
adjective
confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.