Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[Elizah Huge]

If the Jazz havent figured out how to get a 1st for Mike Conley yet, there is no way the Heat are getting a first for Strus or Lowry. It's just not a thing that is going to happen. Plus the Miami picks are objectively lower value, so even if the straight # is the same, the perceived value is still lower. Plus the Knicks have younger picks.

IDK why we talking about Miami when the only reason Miami is talked about on National TV as a suitor is just because they are Miami. They dont have the necessary value to get a deal done with Utah.

I mean if they called up the Lakers and offered Lowry/Robinson for Westbrook and their 27/29 1sts maybe they do it I’m not sure.

Andy mentioned the Heat as a possible suitor so that alone is reason to talk about it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, Miami's offer would a bunt that grounds out to the pitcher and the Knicks offer would be a grand slam.

IDK how anyone can remotely think this.

It depends on what NY's offer is and what Herro turns into. If Knicks indeed are protecting the 27 pick and not including the 29 pick then the Heat picks and swaps completely unprotected plus a rich offer from a team getting Herro starts to get interesting.

The Knicks mega package is the top prize we should shoot for. But if Orlando threw in the two picks they own from Denver and Chicago or one of those picks and a 25 pick of their own lightly protected then it gets in the ballpark of a somewhat protected picks package from NY.

At very least send Miami out to see what they can get for Herro, Strus, Lowry and use it to get the NY package done. Herro is a polarizing player per some nba experts... some see him as potential all star and some see him as Lou Will. If you found a team willing to give 2-3 decent picks for him then its okay. Not sure that is really out there but I'd want them to go see what is there.

 

[idiot]

If Miami can parlay Lowry, Herro, Strus into something good they can get in the ballpark with the Knicks.

If they could get a 1st for Lowry and a 1st for Strus then it is in the same ballpark at least.

23/27/29 unprotected 1sts
24/26/28 pick swaps

2 other 1sts from other teams

Herro and 5 1sts plus 3 pick swaps is definitely in the same ballpark.

We would much rather have the Knicks picks in their package if all things were equal. They can obviously give us more and without having to do anything else.

Don't really see how Lowry and Strus yield 2 useful picks by themselves (Lowry isn't a positive contract at this point).

But maybe something like this?:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29f9s75l

Miami gets: DM
Jazz get Westbrook
Lakers get: Lowry, Strus, Herro, Gay, NAW

Plus 2027 & 2029 picks from Lakers and 3 picks from Heat coming back to Jazz?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If the Jazz havent figured out how to get a 1st for Mike Conley yet, there is no way the Heat are getting a first for Strus or Lowry. It's just not a thing that is going to happen. Plus the Miami picks are objectively lower value, so even if the straight # is the same, the perceived value is still lower. Plus the Knicks have younger picks.

IDK why we talking about Miami when the only reason Miami is talked about on National TV as a suitor is just because they are Miami. They dont have the necessary value to get a deal done with Utah.

I think Lowry has more value than Mike in some situations. Can just say he was hurt this year and he had some personal stuff going on.

I think it benefits our negotiations with NY to keep Miami out searching for deals to make it work. Stranger things have happened.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I want 6 picks, absolutely think if Danny is patient he can get that, plus Grimes, Reddish, and Toppin

 

[Elizah Huge]

Don't really see how Lowry and Strus yield 2 useful picks by themselves (Lowry isn't a positive contract at this point).

But maybe something like this?:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29f9s75l

Plus 2027 & 2029 picks from Lakers and 3 picks from Heat coming back to Jazz?

Yes but zero shot Lakers get Herro he’d come to us or routed to a 4th team for more picks.

 

[gomretat]

The love affair with picks is confusing given how rarely draft picks play out as planned. Danny was extremely luck in Boston that he ended up in the front part of the lotto and then fortunate that he got players that panned out. I want young talent with the picks so at least we know we have something. I have no interest in being the OKC Thunder.

 

[Nate505]

I could give a **** about any of the players rumored to be in the deal, the only thing that matters it the picks.

Blah. They need to get a player back that at least makes the Jazz worth watching next year. Otherwise, what's the point. Why not just forfeit all your games to give yourself the best odds of having the worst record.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think Lowry has more value than Mike in some situations. Can just say he was hurt this year and he had some personal stuff going on.

I think it benefits our negotiations with NY to keep Miami out searching for deals to make it work. Stranger things have happened.

If he has more value, it's slight and not worth a first rounder considering he's paid 28 and 29 million over the next two years.

And yeah, you hit it on the head. Miami is just used. They arent a real contender for Mitchell. They just do it because they like being in the news for every star because it boost their brand.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The love affair with picks is confusing given how rarely draft picks play out as planned. Danny was extremely luck in Boston that he ended up in the front part of the lotto and then fortunate that he got players that panned out. I want young talent with the picks so at least we know we have something. I have no interest in being the OKC Thunder.

This is why I am not opposed to taking Herro and 5 1sts plus 3 pick swaps if it was the best offer available.

 

[PresidioTrojan]

Blah. They need to get a player back that at least makes the Jazz worth watching next year. Otherwise, what's the point. Why not just forfeit all your games to give yourself the best odds of having the worst record.

I would be in favor of that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Blah. They need to get a player back that at least makes the Jazz worth watching next year. Otherwise, what's the point. Why not just forfeit all your games to give yourself the best odds of having the worst record.

Because the League wouldnt let you do that.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Tyler Herro could at least get you 2-3 picks I’m sure if you didn’t want to keep him.

 

[Nate505]

The love affair with picks is confusing given how rarely draft picks play out as planned. Danny was extremely luck in Boston that he ended up in the front part of the lotto and then fortunate that he got players that panned out. I want young talent with the picks so at least we know we have something. I have no interest in being the OKC Thunder.

I don't get it either and I'm in complete agreement. Here are picks the Jazz have made when drafting in the Top 10 since Stockton and Malone retired:

2005, #3: Deron Williams. Great pick, even with all the baggage that came later.
2010:, #9 Gordon Hayward: Pretty good pick, no complaints there even though I detest him.
2011, #3: Enes Kanter. Horrible pick. **** him
2014: #5. Dante Exum. Horrible pick. Even without the injuries I couldn't envision him becoming great.

So it's a mixed bag at best. The Jazz got two better players (other than maybe Deron) with the #13 and #27 picks.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The love affair with picks is confusing given how rarely draft picks play out as planned. Danny was extremely luck in Boston that he ended up in the front part of the lotto and then fortunate that he got players that panned out. I want young talent with the picks so at least we know we have something. I have no interest in being the OKC Thunder.

I have bad news for you... we absolutely are going the Thunder route whether or not we get the Knicks young guys and picks or just picks.

Unprotected picks have a way of coming back to haunt teams. Cleveland got the pick that became Kyrie by taking on a salary dump trade from the Clippers. Tatum and Brown obviously are good examples... this year NOP got the #8 and OKC got #12 from teams that were supposed to give away late picks. Danny also traded an unprotected pick for Kyrie Irving because of the mystery box element of the pick.

Picks are the currency and are just so useful in a rebuild in numerous ways. The unprotected picks are so much more valuable than the ones that might have restrictions. Those are the priority.

 

[MT Steve]

The love affair with picks is confusing given how rarely draft picks play out as planned. Danny was extremely luck in Boston that he ended up in the front part of the lotto and then fortunate that he got players that panned out. I want young talent with the picks so at least we know we have something. I have no interest in being the OKC Thunder.

To be a title contender, you basically need a top 10 player. If you're in a small market, the only realistic way of getting a top 10 player is through the draft. Having a treasure trove of 1st rounders increases the probability of not only landing a top 10 player, but also building around him via trades.

It's not even about tanking, it's about accumulating as many bites at the apple as possible.

 

[Nate505]

Because the League wouldnt let you do that.

Yeah, no kidding. Throwing out a bunch of scrubs is pretty much the same thing, and from an entertainment and competitive perspective (which believe it or not, is one reason I actually like watching basketball) it's horrible.

 

[MT Steve]

I don't get it either and I'm in complete agreement. Here are picks the Jazz have made when drafting in the Top 10 since Stockton and Malone retired:

2005, #3: Deron Williams. Great pick, even with all the baggage that came later.
2010:, #9 Gordon Hayward: Pretty good pick, no complaints there even though I detest him.
2011, #3: Enes Kanter. Horrible pick. **** him
2014: #5. Dante Exum. Horrible pick. Even without the injuries I couldn't envision him becoming great.

So it's a mixed bag at best. The Jazz got two better players (other than maybe Deron) with the #13 and #27 picks.

This is an argument against tanking, not an argument against accumulating picks.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't get it either and I'm in complete agreement. Here are picks the Jazz have made when drafting in the Top 10 since Stockton and Malone retired:

2005, #3: Deron Williams. Great pick, even with all the baggage that came later.
2010:, #9 Gordon Hayward: Pretty good pick, no complaints there even though I detest him.
2011, #3: Enes Kanter. Horrible pick. **** him
2014: #5. Dante Exum. Horrible pick. Even without the injuries I couldn't envision him becoming great.

So it's a mixed bag at best. The Jazz got two better players (other than maybe Deron) with the #13 and #27 picks.

Okay now do the NBA in its entirety.

 

[Nate505]

I have bad news for you... we absolutely are going the Thunder route whether or not we get the Knicks young guys and picks or just picks.

Welp, unless the Jazz have a player worth watching on their team, this will be the first year in about 20 years I probably won't be watching the Jazz.