Classic.
p.s. Deron IS coming back to Utah.
I've never stopped believing.
Quit whining, and just let Al Jefferson's contract play it's course??
- Thread starter TheSilencer1313
- Start date
I've never stopped believing.
Chicken-Egg. Here's what I see:
Do you have any plays in mind that the Jazz run half decent? I'm not asking for anything on a, ya know, professional level. Just a single play that the Jazz actually execute.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
This gets repeated ad nauseum, and there's just no truth to it.
The biggest fallacy is "movement". Al has nothing to do with other players moving, and the idea that other players, presumably instructed to move, don't move because Al just got the ball is ludicrous. We just rarely cut last year. Part of that was Hayward starting for the first time, and Bell being absolutely incapable of cutting. Come to think of it, I can't remember Devin ever cutting.
To be honest, I'm not even sure how much Ty emphasized cutting. AK might have cut more in his last season for us than all our wings combined last year.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
The way I see it now Al was the training wheels for a young team and coach in a lockout year. He had a lot to do with getting into that playoff series, which to my mind was a good thing. I would have wanted to keep him until the deadline except that Kanter looked a ton better than I thought he would last season.
Kanter and Favors aren't great passers yet either but hopefully they will be much quicker learners than Jeff and while they will crash the bike it can't go fast enough with those training wheels still on.
I do still believe in Al as a player, he'll continue to get better. But he needs a lot of coaching that must be invested in the two #3s. Al needs to swiftly be moved. Hopefully Dwight goes to Brooklyn really soon.
Kanter and Favors aren't great passers yet either but hopefully they will be much quicker learners than Jeff and while they will crash the bike it can't go fast enough with those training wheels still on.
I do still believe in Al as a player, he'll continue to get better. But he needs a lot of coaching that must be invested in the two #3s. Al needs to swiftly be moved. Hopefully Dwight goes to Brooklyn really soon.
Lion's Roar
Active Member
#1 Players that have on skill are subs in the NBA??? Not when your skill is to get a shot off against pretty much anyone. That's the single most important aspect of the NBA game other than maybe team defense.
#2 Al just passes the ball when he absolutelly has to.... That's the essence of post play. Hold the ball, make the defense collapse and THEN pass the ball. BTW Locke kept saying that one problem with Al was that he wasn't double teamed enough cause he didn't put the opposing big man in foul trouble. So if he isn't getting double teamed enough how is he going to pass more?
#3 Ppl keep saying Al is bad defensivelly but is he really that bad other than on the pick-and-roll??? He isn't Boozer that plays 40 minutes a night and get's half a block a game. Actually he might be a good man-to-man defender but not a great help defender.
#4 Al stagnates the offense??? Yeah to the tune of the 4th best offense in the NBA last season. 100 ppg without any outside shooting. I guess some were saying things like S&M stagnate the offense for the other three guys when they run the pick and roll. And yes Utah had a STAGNANT offense. I remember Eaton's job was to stand on the 3 point line and when Stockton or Malone broke the pick plane he would run in for the offensive boards and that was that. Russell was also a spot 3 point shooter for quite sometime. Gary Payton used the dribble butt-bump...dribble butt-bump....dribble butt-bump for like 10 seconds all while facing his own basket. What about Hakeem's dribble, fake, jab step, fake, jab step fake, spin fake, double pump fake, score.....I guess ppl could call it stagnant as well. How exactly do you guys think the Jazz will get their offense without Big Al? With the Flex again? Without shooters to hit of the curl like Harpring, Korver or Deron? Without cutters like Brewer and AK that were amazing at running the baseline AND finishing?
#5 When Al negotiated his contract with Minnesotta he had been traded for KG was seen as a special player to develop and a bright young star. Everyone thought he would be getting the max. Strangelly he signed for less, they asked him why and he answered he hadn't earned max money yet. Who knows how much it would take to resign him.
#2 Al just passes the ball when he absolutelly has to.... That's the essence of post play. Hold the ball, make the defense collapse and THEN pass the ball. BTW Locke kept saying that one problem with Al was that he wasn't double teamed enough cause he didn't put the opposing big man in foul trouble. So if he isn't getting double teamed enough how is he going to pass more?
#3 Ppl keep saying Al is bad defensivelly but is he really that bad other than on the pick-and-roll??? He isn't Boozer that plays 40 minutes a night and get's half a block a game. Actually he might be a good man-to-man defender but not a great help defender.
#4 Al stagnates the offense??? Yeah to the tune of the 4th best offense in the NBA last season. 100 ppg without any outside shooting. I guess some were saying things like S&M stagnate the offense for the other three guys when they run the pick and roll. And yes Utah had a STAGNANT offense. I remember Eaton's job was to stand on the 3 point line and when Stockton or Malone broke the pick plane he would run in for the offensive boards and that was that. Russell was also a spot 3 point shooter for quite sometime. Gary Payton used the dribble butt-bump...dribble butt-bump....dribble butt-bump for like 10 seconds all while facing his own basket. What about Hakeem's dribble, fake, jab step, fake, jab step fake, spin fake, double pump fake, score.....I guess ppl could call it stagnant as well. How exactly do you guys think the Jazz will get their offense without Big Al? With the Flex again? Without shooters to hit of the curl like Harpring, Korver or Deron? Without cutters like Brewer and AK that were amazing at running the baseline AND finishing?
#5 When Al negotiated his contract with Minnesotta he had been traded for KG was seen as a special player to develop and a bright young star. Everyone thought he would be getting the max. Strangelly he signed for less, they asked him why and he answered he hadn't earned max money yet. Who knows how much it would take to resign him.
JJ Rage
Active Member
Chicken-Egg. Here's what I see:
Compelling arguments. I don't have the technical Xs and Os knowledge form a rebuttal, and I'm man enough to admit that I may be wrong.
I still think the truth could lie somewhere in the middle, between Al being the "black hole" and the other guys on the team simply not moving (whether that is coaching or just how the other players behave once Al receives the ball). I watch the games and I know what I've seen, at least on the surface.
Regardless, I just worry that having both Al and Millsap on the team will impede the development of Kanter and Favors. Someone has to go, and Jefferson might start looking like an interesting option for teams in need of a big man once Dwight Howard's destination is decided.
Fully agree. Jefferson doesn't have a perfect game and his flaws are obnoxious as hell at times. Low FT's linked to his poor inside shooting % are enough to make me pull my hair out. This guy is still really valuable though and is the reason the Jazz made it to the 8th spot last season. If they get some outside shooting and a competent offensive team then he'll see less double teams, assist when he does, and be more of an offensive rebounding threat due to longer boards, thinner paint defense, and scrambling coverage. AJ has the potential to go 23/11/2.6 assists/2blocks on .54% shooting.
BTW, Jefferson shot 5 FTA's per game during his best years vs. 2.9 per game last season. Knocking one shot off his average by drawing one more shooting foul per game could have increased his shooting % to 52.4% and points up around 21. It's not out of the realm of possibilities for Jeffeson to get back to his pre-injury form of drawing 5 fouls per game and combining that with his veteran experience to get up to the highly efficient 55% shooting mark.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Are you drinking this early in the day?
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Yup, once Dwight and Gasol destinations appear determined, then the Jefferson market will materialize. Houston and Milwaukee still need starting centers, and so might Indiana (among others).
You can use any fancy breakdown or metric you want, but Favors and Kanter need more time, and between Jefferson and Millsap, Al is the guy I'd rather see go. end of story.
EDIT: BTW, I listed HOU, MIL, and IND because they can absorb Jefferson's contract, and give us a rookie-scale contract and a future first. That's all I want.
You can use any fancy breakdown or metric you want, but Favors and Kanter need more time, and between Jefferson and Millsap, Al is the guy I'd rather see go. end of story.
EDIT: BTW, I listed HOU, MIL, and IND because they can absorb Jefferson's contract, and give us a rookie-scale contract and a future first. That's all I want.
And I'm two hours behind you. It's the 4th of July though so give me a break and let me know when you reach the other side of the tunnel you're vision is stuck in.
TheSilencer1313
Well-Known Member
Don't worry.... Mantooth rarely has a significant retort, no matter what time of day it is.
Kanter, the GSW pick, and the Jazz own first traded on draft night will fetch the most value. Jefferson/Favors/Millsap is a nice rotation. Add a point guard like Rondo and a stud at either 2 or 3 and this team can conceivably contend. Sell Jefferson for scraps like you three keep recommending and it's still in forever build mode absent unrealistic leaps and bounds from 4 young kids.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
And who are you? The dingleberries in my *******?
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Right. 23/11/2.6/2 on 54% just screams of perfect vision though. I mean, Big Al hasn't ever shot higher than 52.8%, which was in his rookie year mind you, and hasn't shot higher than 50% since 06/07 but yet 54% seems highly plausible to you. Even though he's basically never approached that and shows no signs of progress in that area. Give me a break bro. I have the potential to take ****s of gold. But it ain't happening.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
There are ways that I have appreciated Jefferson. For example, I think last year was a positive experience in many ways, and he deserves a sizable slice of the credit. These experiences will stay with the organization.
Okay, now that I've said that...
I wouldn't consider, e.g., White + 2013 first-round pick to be "scraps". White himself has good upside, and an additional pick next year could be great. We could package two picks and move up, adding considerable talent to an already-young core.
Oh, and saying Jefferson could be on a team that conceivably contends is taking a ****ing huge leap of faith.
Okay, now that I've said that...
I wouldn't consider, e.g., White + 2013 first-round pick to be "scraps". White himself has good upside, and an additional pick next year could be great. We could package two picks and move up, adding considerable talent to an already-young core.
Oh, and saying Jefferson could be on a team that conceivably contends is taking a ****ing huge leap of faith.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
my reasons for wanting al gone have a lot to do with al, but just as much to with wanting favors and millsap to be centrally featured on this team. that will never happen while al is here.
if you could trade him for 1-2 young players plus a future pick (2014 or later, though; we already have two next year) then you HAVE to do it.
if you could trade him for 1-2 young players plus a future pick (2014 or later, though; we already have two next year) then you HAVE to do it.
Former Member
Banned
Who would offer a deal like this? The rumors were that Millsap had better trade value, and I don't believe we could get anything like this for him.
Please. The guy is 26, came of a serious injury, has been traded into two terrible situations, and is still willing to do anything coach asks of him. Expecting him to return to pre-injury foul stats with his veteran experience and an improved supporting cast is nowhere near irrational. It's four or five percentage points.
That's probably the way to go if you want a 3-5 year horizon. If the Jazz want to build a WCF+ team then trading Kanter and draft picks is the route.
And?
What was wrong with the 2009/10 team? Height against LA Lakers huge lineup. Favors and size at the 3 solves that.
What was wrong with the 2011 team? Memo broke down and KOC let the 3 point shooting and Brewer's offensive specialties walk. CJ, Raja, and an oft injured AK were the guys clanking wide open setups from Deron. What pissed Williams off the most was Miller's lack of deep enough pockets to retain shooters. That was a tough model to run with zero competence at the 2 and 3. Again, Favors size upgrade over Millsap pastes over a lot of these issues. Solidify these two wing positions and Jefferson is more than competent in a very well rounded team.