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The Official Blow up the team thread.

LunaticWolf said:
We're not going to get a lottery pick out of it, you have to hope we can get an under appreciated player who we can turn into something.
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I think we just fundamentally disagree and that's just that.

If we stifled Favors and Kanter to get "an underappreciated player" we are just foolish.

Those type of players can be had in FA or in much easier ways.

I don't know what players fits that description For you, but for me it isn't worth what it is doing to our young Bigs games and heads.

I guarantee you they are pissed off right now and have developed a disdain for the Jazz ( the way Deron did when he "only signed a three year deal") now but wont say anything so they can avoid media crushing them.

I've said before. If I were Favors I'd take the QO and sit out "injured" and then leave this team or I'd ask for a trade instead of staying on a team that is going to play me this much and then offer me a lower contract extension soon because I'm a "bench" player instead of a potentially max deal like Lopez got depending on how I produced if I got time.


Thing is we don't know if Favors deserves Lopez money or Ibaka money because we don't know how he'd produce getting starter mins and for that reason if I'm Favors im pissed.
 
LunaticWolf said:
We have our picks, we need to bring in a supporting cast.

We had a chance in 08 to get to the finals. 09 we were set back by injuries.

and in 10? Our cast was older and less effective, and we didn't replace them with as good players.
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We are not playing our picks to discover what suporting cast we need. Instead we are treading water with vets that are unlikely to be here.

So again. What is the reasonable reason that Jefferson and Millsap are still playing more than the youth that are just as good if not better? What is the reasonable reason that Burks has barely played this season? This is the complaint that you keep trying to refute.
 
LunaticWolf said:
Reacting game to game and throwing away the assets you have isn't a championship strategy either.
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Neither is losing assets you have for nothing. Which is what is most likely going to happen now. So we lose for nothing the guys currently playing all while not finding out what we really have.
 
LunaticWolf said:
We're not going to get a lottery pick out of it, you have to hope we can get an under appreciated player who we can turn into something.
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If all we can get is an underappreciated player then why the hell are they so valuable that we are losing something by benching them? You just completely dismissed your entire argument. This being the case then there is absolutely no reason for Millsap and Jefferson to have been getting the minutes they have gotten for 2 years. And you have just risked your ability to resign 2 #3 picks for a possible chance at an underappreciated player. Completely idiotic.
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What's going to happen is that the Jazz want too much for Millsap and/or Jefferson and that they are going to be here all year. And they are going to continue to start and get 30+MPG. Just like last year. The fact is they are playing because Corbin has no balls and refuses to see that our worst Front court is Millsap and Jefferson together and that in the meantime he is pissing off our more talented younger players.
 
Everyone should wait and see what happens at the trade deadline. When the Jazz pick up these wayward veterans, I think their goal is to hold on to player value and then exchange that player value for something--a pick, a TPE, another player that helps the team, etc. I think the Jazz would rather do this than flat-out tank.

It's obvious that the future of the team is the young 4, but I honestly think the Jazz are trying to get one or two more major pieces to add to or to improve that core. That's not easy to do, and it requires playing the cards right. If the FO can get something of value for Al, Sap, Marvin, Foye, etc. by the trade deadline (or in an unlikely sign-and-trade at the end of the season), then that really does help our cause.

After the trade deadline, I expect either Al or Sap to be gone, and I expect Burks, Favors and Kanter to start getting more minutes. It wouldn't surprise me if the Jazz move Marvin Williams as well.

That way, the Jazz will have the young 4, plus whatever assets they picked up by trading a veteran.
 
Catchall said:
Everyone should wait and see what happens at the trade deadline. When the Jazz pick up these wayward veterans, I think their goal is to hold on to player value and then exchange that player value for something--a pick, a TPE, another player that helps the team, etc. I think the Jazz would rather do this than flat-out tank.

It's obvious that the future of the team is the young 4, but I honestly think the Jazz are trying to get one or two more major pieces to add to or to improve that core. That's not easy to do, and it requires playing the cards right. If the FO can get something of value for Al, Sap, Marvin, Foye, etc. by the trade deadline (or in an unlikely sign-and-trade at the end of the season), then that really does help our cause.

After the trade deadline, I expect either Al or Sap to be gone, and I expect Burks, Favors and Kanter to start getting more minutes. It wouldn't surprise me if the Jazz move Marvin Williams as well.

That way, the Jazz will have the young 4, plus whatever assets they picked up by trading a veteran.
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While I hope and pray that you are right. It still seems to me the best time to do this would have been last year at the trade deadline or this last summer. It seems too late now. Only thing you are really giving to a team now is cap relief or depth for a playoff run. Either way you are unlikely to get very much for them.
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The chances of a sign and trade this summer are virtually 0. There is no incentive for a player to work with their previous franchise anymore. They would be weakening their new team for nothing. They can't get more money this way anymore. At least that is how I now understand it. Also under these circumstances the other team has very little incentive to work with a players former team.
 
gregbroncs said:
If all we can get is an underappreciated player then why the hell are they so valuable that we are losing something by benching them? You just completely dismissed your entire argument. This being the case then there is absolutely no reason for Millsap and Jefferson to have been getting the minutes they have gotten for 2 years. And you have just risked your ability to resign 2 #3 picks for a possible chance at an underappreciated player. Completely idiotic.
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What's going to happen is that the Jazz want too much for Millsap and/or Jefferson and that they are going to be here all year. And they are going to continue to start and get 30+MPG. Just like last year. The fact is they are playing because Corbin has no balls and refuses to see that our worst Front court is Millsap and Jefferson together and that in the meantime he is pissing off our more talented younger players.
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This.

So lunatics master plan would be to keep playing millsap and jefferson so that we can trade them for an underappreciated player lol.
 
gregbroncs said:
While I hope and pray that you are right. It still seems to me the best time to do this would have been last year at the trade deadline or this last summer. It seems too late now. Only thing you are really giving to a team now is cap relief or depth for a playoff run. Either way you are unlikely to get very much for them.
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The chances of a sign and trade this summer are virtually 0. There is no incentive for a player to work with their previous franchise anymore. They would be weakening their new team for nothing. They can't get more money this way anymore. At least that is how I now understand it. Also under these circumstances the other team has very little incentive to work with a players former team.
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The Jazz DID try to move Millsap and possibly Jefferson over the summer, but didn't see a deal worth pulling the trigger on. You're right about the summer sign-and-trade challenge. Chicago really helped us out when they did this with Boozer. However, I still think at the end of the year, the Jazz could sign and trade Al to a team that a) wants to sign Al for 3 or more years, and b) wants to move a player or a TPE off their cap in the process. By this, I'm assuming a team that gives out a TPE gets some cap relief for it.

Suppose a team wants to sign Al, but doesn't have the cap room, and Al wants to go there. That team would offer the Jazz a sign-and-trade so the Jazz would take back some salary along with an incentive like a pick or TPE. The Jazz would be doing Al and the other team a favor by doing a sign-and-trade. The Jazz must think there is some real value in keeping financial flexibility. Otherwise, yes, not trading Al or Sap would mean they risk losing them for nothing. Am I missing something here?
 
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There are several teams that are interested in Sap and Al and could do various deals. I'm assuming the Jazz, along with trying to get real value back in a trade, are also weighing the value of maintaining financial flexibility.

I think this thread should turn to the merits of keeping cap room and consider this along with the "Why haven't we traded Al or Sap yet?" discussion.

The Lakers would take either Al or Sap in a heartbeat, as would the Spurs. The Heat could use either of them. The Celtics could use either of them, especially Al. Milwaukee's interested. It's not that there are no potential deals out there.
 
Catchall said:
There are several teams that are interested in Sap and Al and could do various deals. I'm assuming the Jazz, along with trying to get real value back in a trade, are also weighing the value of maintaining financial flexibility.

I think this thread should turn to the merits of keeping cap room and consider this along with the "Why haven't we traded Al or Sap yet?" discussion.

The Lakers would take either Al or Sap in a heartbeat, as would the Spurs. The Heat could use either of them. The Celtics could use either of them, especially Al. Milwaukee's interested. It's not that there are no potential deals out there.
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Agreed. Some people here like to think, in their ignorance, that Big Al isnt a good player. I agree that plenty of teams would love to have him, as well as Sap, but the Jazz want to get a deal they like. They arent going to just trade Al for a Peanut Butter Cup because bipolar people on Jazzfanz want him gone.
Yes, he needs to go to free up minutes for the youth, but no point in giving him away. That would be stupid. When the Jazz do, and they WILL, trade Big Al and get something decent for him, so many people will be happy as hell. Of course most of those same people want the Jazz to let him go for nothing.
 
I and most would be perfectly happy with Al and Millsap on the team if that also meant we were developing our youth. We are not wanting to trade them for nothing. But feel that in the end that is all the Jazz are going to get. Their best chance at trading them was last year if they wanted value. Now they should be playing the youth regardless of how the vets feel about it. They are most likely leaving anyway. If the best we have a hope for is an underappreciated player or a late 1st round pick then them sitting on the bench is not hurting their value anyway as they must not have much value.
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If they continue to get these minutes after the trade deadline then we have a real problem. I don't think half a season is enough to see how these young players fit together but at this point that's the best we can hope for.
 
Remember how Raja Bell played quite a bit the first half of last season and then got shelved so Hayward and Burks could get more minutes? The same will probably happen with one of our back-up PGs so that Burks can play more.
 
Catchall said:
Remember how Raja Bell played quite a bit the first half of last season and then got shelved so Hayward and Burks could get more minutes? The same will probably happen with one of our back-up PGs so that Burks can play more.
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And with Millsap and Jefferson as well?
 
Catchall said:
Remember how Raja Bell played quite a bit the first half of last season and then got shelved so Hayward and Burks could get more minutes? The same will probably happen with one of our back-up PGs so that Burks can play more.
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I remember Bell continuing to get minutes. I remember him continuing to get minutes until "injury" and until higher management had him sit out. I also remember Howard (do you remember him? No? Oh, we'll lets have this same discussion next year about Foye) getting minutes.
 
gregbroncs said:
And with Millsap and Jefferson as well?
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If we don't trade Millsap by the deadline, I'll bet his minutes get cut back to make more room for Favors and Kanter, and I bet Al sits a few more minutes for Kanter to play. That's assuming we don't trade Al and try to do some clever finance-driven strategy over the summer.
 
infection said:
I remember Bell continuing to get minutes. I remember him continuing to get minutes until "injury" and until higher management had him sit out. I also remember Howard (do you remember him? No? Oh, we'll lets have this same discussion next year about Foye) getting minutes.
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Howard also got injured, but started in the playoffs when he came back half-healthy. Bell did get injured, but when he came back he was put on the bench, and he started whining. Keep in mind, last year we had CJ Smiles too.
 
Keep Kanter, Favors, Hayward, Burks, Evans, Carroll and Millsap.

Use Jefferson, Marvin, Mo, Tinsley, Watson, Murphy, Foye and Bell along with picks and what not to improve the team.
 
LunaticWolf said:
How many high first round picks did it take the Clippers, Timberwolves, or the Hawks to become good teams?
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The Hawks actually prove the point that most of us are making about Big Al.

As soon as the Hawks git rid of their high-volume production player that used possessions below the league average they became better.

Al Jefferson is our Joe Johnson. Thanks again Lunatic.
 
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