That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that when people arrive in a new country and have no names for the new things, they generally use the names of things that they had "back home".
So I want to talk about the Mormons
- Thread starter franklin
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That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that when people arrive in a new country and have no names for the new things, they generally use the names of things that they had "back home".
I could never scribe a book for someone. I'd be way too tempted to slip in a few wangs and all kinds of sexual innuendo. I'm a weak man.
While your questions are reflecting a fairly high level of discussion, I have to disclose my personal bias/family history. My wife is descended from Benjamin F. Johnson who was a close friend of Joseph Smith from his early youth, and was during the early twentieth century the last living person who had actually known the prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith married two of Benjamin Johnson's sisters who were widowed and helped support their families to the extent he was able. Brother Ben shouldered the task when Joseph Smith was killed.
From the standpoint of people who actually knew Joseph Smith and had experience dealing with him in real life, the whole "con man" slur is just so far from credible it gets actually difficult to countenance the slur politely.
Joseph Smith always lived on the same level of "finance" as his followers. His house was open to any person in dire necessity, and he'd sleep on the floor so travel-weary or ailing folks could sleep on a bed.
con men by definition do what they do to rip off other people's means/money/stuff for their own use. Few will continue to try it if they can't profit from it. A lot of folks nowadays faced with court judgments will delay or avoid paying the judgments, some will take out bankruptcy. Joseph Smith continued to try to pay people who lost their money when his "bank" failed for the rest of his life.
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The problem with this arguement is that it comes from you. You are the one that tried to minimize or discredit my views onr acism because I am white. I never tried to minimize or discredit your views on LDS persecution.
I am glad that you have opened your eyes to what I was saying. Makes me want to foolishly believe there is hope for you yet, haha.
mellow
Well-Known Member
I consider myself quite a skeptic in life and my reasoning processes lean toward engineering even if I'm not real smart. I admit that when my skeptism runs into my faith that there have been moments of dissonance. For instance, when I was first introduced to anti-mormon literature there were a few points that made my head spin. Over the years I've discovered that most of it was fabricated mud-slinging that claimed to be seeking an analytical answer but was really throwing mud just to overwhelm people who might otherwise consider the BoM. But I digress....
If I left my conclusions about the BoM to my skeptical mind and reasoning I would be in a different place. But reason is not the only way of knowing a thing. For me the dissonance is calmly covered and the gaps in my understanding and what the BoM puports to be is safely bridged by something bigger and it feels as natural as a walk in the forest.
I don't expect everyone else to experience that, and I expect there to be some misunderstanding. But for me it is.
I get what you are saying here, but I also think we need to look at results. Obviously, the gun laws in the places haven't eliminated guns or crimes with them (hello Plaxico Burress). But are gun related crimes lower than before? Or lower than they would be without said laws in effect? I honestly don't know enough about it to give an answer. Bringing it home, are Utah's liquor laws having a positive effect on the numbers of DUI's here? There's really no way to know without changing them. I would think the numbers of DUI's would go up, slightly. I don't think the increase would be dramatic by any stretch of the imagination.
For the record, from my limited knowledge of Utah's liquor laws, I think there are huge improvements that could (and should) be made.
There aren't "swine in Texas? What the hell is that hoggers show bout?
CONAN
Well-Known Member
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not the one playing the victim card here. I find that an amusing position for either side. But especially for haters.
"The Mormons took away my freedom. Ya, that's why I hate on them."
BS
CONAN
Well-Known Member
Oh comon, Man. Look no further than the first few posts after your original post. Threads like this are like chum for the haters.
Then explain that in better detail. If you don't then people will continue to misunderstand you.
I'm interested in that discussion I'm just not qualified to participate in it.
OK, Franklin, I'll help you out. You mention Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon in your O.P. I also think that is a fascinating subject. Here's a list I compiled from a few different sources many years ago. (If I recall correctly the single largest source was Dr. John Tvedtnes of BYU who has written several papers on the topic if you want to google them.) Any one of them could be overlooked, but taken as a whole I think it's pretty convincing evidence of the Hebrew nature of the source text.
(Partial) List of Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon
* [adjective] above all - 1 Ne 2:20 - Instead of using comparative words like “brighter” or “brightest”, the Hebrew idiom is used: “bright from [something else]” or “bright above all”. This example reads “choice above all”. See also 1 Ne 11:9, Alma 32:42, 39:5, Mosiah 1:11.
* and/but - 2 Ne 1:20 vs. 2 Ne 4:4 - “And” also can mean “but” in Hebrew. In these two passages, the identical phrase is quoted, with “but” used in one and “and” in the other. See also Moroni 9:4 & 3 Ne 20:1 where “and” is used but “but” would make more sense.
* and/now - 2 Ne 5:15 - “And” is used much more commonly than in English. In this example we read “in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass...” instead of “... wood, iron, copper, brass...” And is also used frequently at the beginning of a sentence, even when the sentence doesn’t link with the previous one. See also Alma 43:16-20.
* and also - Jacob 4:5 - “and also” is one word in Hebrew. In English you would say “... and we also worship...”, not “... and also we worship...” as it reads here. See also Mosiah 27:8, 27:14, 27:21.
* and his - 1 Nephi 2:4 - Hebrew cannot say “his house and family and friends,” since possessive pronouns are usually suffixes of the noun. One must say “his house and his family and his friends.” See also 1 Ne 3:22, 10:6, 13:36, 3 Ne 9:10, Mosiah 24:22.
* before the face/before the presence - 1 Nephi 4:28 - in this example “fled from before my presence” is used idiomatically instead of “fled from me”. See also 1 Ne 11:12, 11:29.
* by the hand of - Mosiah 17:18 - Compound prepositions (prep + noun) are used idiomatically instead of the preposition alone. In this case the meaning is an action performed by somebody: “by the hand of your enemies” instead of “by your enemies.” Other examples are Alma 10:3 and Alma 10:4.
* by the mouth of - Alma 13:22 - Similar to “by the hand of” this is used to indicate speech by somebody: “words which have been spoken by the mouth of all the prophets,” instead of “...spoken by the prophets.” Another example is 1 Ne 3:20.
* cursed with a sore cursing, did judge righteous judgments, have dreamed a dream - The Hebrew “cognate accusative” consists of a verb immediately followed by a noun derived from the same root, for emphasis. Some examples are Jacob 3:3, Mosiah 7:15, 11:10, 23:5, 29:43, 1 Nephi 3:2, 8:2, 14:7, 2 Ne 1:22, 5:15. One interesting Biblical example is Gen 1:11, where it is translated “let the earth bring forth grass” but literally reads “let the earth grass grass.”
* did call the name - 1 Ne 16:13 - an idiom used instead of “the [person/place] was called.” This example reads: “we did call the name of the place Shazer.” See also Alma 50:13-14, Mosiah 1:2, Alma 23:17.
* good eye/single eye - 3 Ne 13:22-23, Mormon 8:14-15 - The Hebrew idiom “good eye” (translated in King James Bible as “single eye” means “generous”, the opposite of “stingy”. The Book of Mormon uses the idiom correctly both in the Sermon on the Mount (3rd Nephi) and in Mormon.
* he said in his heart - a Hebrew idiom for “he thought”.
* head - Jacob 1:4 - a Hebrew word meaning “chief”.
* how much more - 2 Nephi 31:5 - One of the Hebrew rules for understanding the scriptures is called “Kal v’khomer”. This is a logical argument expressed like this:
1. If X is true of Y
2. then how much more X must be true of Z
3. (where Z is of greater weight than Y)
The example listed in 2 Nephi above reads thusly:
1. If Christ needed to be baptized
2. then how much more do we need to be baptized
3. (since he is holy and we are unholy)
Other examples are 1 Ne 3:31, 4:1, 7:8-12, 17:51, Mosiah 4:22, Alma 32:18-19, 3 Ne 13:26, 14:11
* if/and - instead of if/then. For examples see original text of Helamen 12.
* in/to - 1 Ne 17:14 - two prepositions corresponding to “in” and “to” can be interchanged with little difference: “after ye have arrived to the promised land,” is used here instead of “...in the promised land.”
* isle of the sea - 2 Ne 10:20 - the Hebrew word mean “coastal land” but is often translated in the Bible as “island”.
* mist of darkness, plates of brass, rod of iron, land of promise - The Hebrew “construct state” requires the adjective to be placed after the noun, so we see these instead of dark mists, brass plates, iron rod, or promised land. See for example: Jacob 5:2, 4:8, 2 Ne 10:8, 9:25, Moroni 8:20.
* ...now Zoram was the name of the servant... - 1 Ne 4:35 - In English you would say “there was a man named so and so”; in Hebrew the narration is often broken by a parenthetical remark such as in this case. See also Alma 1:15.
* that - in introducing subordinate clauses, the word “that” is often used in Hebrew where it wouldn’t be in English: “because that my heart is broken”, “because that they are redeemed from the fall, after that I had been lifted up on the cross”, “after that I had gone to the father.” Other examples existed which have since been removed from the Book of Mormon: “because that they had hardened their hearts”, “because that ye are of the house of Israel”, “After that I have abridged”, etc.
* that it/that they - 1 Ne 13:14 - Hebrew sometimes repeats a word by adding an unnecessary (in English) pronoun: “beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren” instead of “beheld that the wrath of God was upon the seed of my brethren.” See also 1 Ne 12:20, 13:15, 14:14.
* reigned under his father - Alma 13:18 - “under” means in place of, not as you would expect a “vice-president” arrangement.
* rent - Alma 46:19 - original edition says “waving the rent of his garment”, now says “... rent part”. Making a noun out of a verb is acceptable Hebrew.
* who/which - 1 Ne 16:37 - the subordinate clause can follow some distance after the noun it’s modifying: “Our brother Nephi.. has taken it upon him to be our ruler and our teacher, who are his older brethren.” See also 1 Ne 17:27, Mosiah 27:31.
* with joy, with patience, with diligence - There are few adverbs in Hebrew, so we see these “adverbials” instead of joyfully, patiently, or diligently.
* women - 1 Ne 17:1 - “women” means “wives”, since there is no word for “wife” in Hebrew. See also 1 Ne 17:20, Alma 10:11.
Poetry: the following poetical forms are found in the Book of Mormon
* synonymous parallelism - 1 Ne 1:15 - one line repeats the previous in slightly different words: “For his soul did rejoice and his whole heart was filled.”
* antithetic parallelism - 1 Ne 17:45 - the thought in one line contrasts and emphasizes the concept of another: “You are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God.”
* climactic parallelism - Mosiah 4:9-10 - One line echoes the thought of the previous, while adding an element which completes the meaning: “Believe in God; believe that he is and that he created all things... believe that you must repent of your sins and forsake them.”
* chiasmus - Jacob 4:9 - parallelism where one line repeats another in reverse order: “By the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word.” See also Alma 36 where the entire chapter is a chiasmus.
I have no trouble believing Smith was not in it for money. That doesn't mean it was genuine. There are seven deadly sins, after all. Even today, people do crazy/stupid things for fame, lust, etc.
I have never told you what the cause of your persecution really was. I haven't told you how you need to change to reduce persecution. I haven't tried to blame you for others persecuting you and made you responsible for not impinging on their sensibilities with your religion. I never said you wouldn't have been beaten if you just tried harder. I didn't use pretend that the history of persecution of Mormons was unimportant to today. Instead, when you talked about how you were treated, I listened and accepted that the people in the wrong where the abusers.
I am still holding out hope for you.
Which of these do not have equivalents in the King James Bible? Why would some of them (such as "women" instead of "wives") appear sporadically?
CONAN
Well-Known Member
Weird how assuming creates misunderstanding.
If every time you posted you said everything the reader needed to know to comprehend you each post would be a few hundred pages long. We HAVE to make assumptions about what you're talking about. The only way to dispel them is to clear up the one's it's reasonable to assume people will make incorrectly.