Bill Simmons Article Discusses Jazz Tank Among Other Things

[Stoked]

Yes, but I do think there were some who claimed the Jazz would never put themselves in a position where they thought they MIGHT have a horrific record, which we are clearly doing.

Lindsey has been a breath of fresh air and surprised us at every opportunity this summer. I'm not convinced he won't surprise us more in the future by having the team rest even the most minor injury. He's proven that he sees what we see and he's got the balls to go out and just DO IT. We all know that if a bottom 3 record is within reach toward the end of the season, it would be smart to pull a GS. Lindsey sees that too, and I'm not convinced he wouldn't go for it after all the moves he's pulled this summer.

I can see your point. I really can. It might even happen.

However, I unequivically hope that it does not happen. I do not care if it is the last game of the season and the Jazz have only won 15 games and have the worst record locked up. You play a full 48 and do your damn best to win.

As long as I fell the Jazz are fighting and playing to win, regardless of the result, I am all in with a big smile cheering my heart out. If I feel they are giving up and pulling GSTankers level crap I will be pissed and ashamed of the organization.

 

[green]

Yes, but I do think there were some who claimed the Jazz would never put themselves in a position where they thought they MIGHT have a horrific record, which we are clearly doing.

Lindsey has been a breath of fresh air and surprised us at every opportunity this summer. I'm not convinced he won't surprise us more in the future by having the team rest even the most minor injury. He's proven that he sees what we see and he's got the balls to go out and just DO IT. We all know that if a bottom 3 record is within reach toward the end of the season, it would be smart to pull a GS. Lindsey sees that too, and I'm not convinced he wouldn't go for it after all the moves he's pulled this summer.

If I am Utah, I make sure that Favors, Hayward, Kanter, Burke and Burks and Rush are 100% before every game. If someone is a little sick, sit them. If they jammed their finger, sit them. If they tweaked their ankle the night before, sit them. You want your young guys developing (30 mins a night for 60 games accomplishes that), you want to see what they can do when healthy, you want them to pull together as a team, and you want to lose.

 

[green]

I can see your point. I really can. It might even happen.

However, I unequivically hope that it does not happen. I do not care if it is the last game of the season and the Jazz have only won 15 games and have the worst record locked up. You play a full 48 and do your damn best to win.

As long as I fell the Jazz are fighting and playing to win, regardless of the result, I am all in with a big smile cheering my heart out. If I feel they are giving up and pulling GSTankers level crap I will be pissed and ashamed of the organization.

What is your goal? If putting forth a good effort is your goal, then you play them.

If winning titles is your goal, ala SA, then you sit them. Pop routinely sits his players when they have 5 games in six nights, crazy back to backs, etc. Why? He sees the big picture. Remember last year when we finally beat SA? And the reason we won was because Parker, Duncan and Ginobili sat out, even though they were healthy?

Your "high" road isn't as glamorous or full of good virtue as you think it is. The problem is, you have painted yourself into a corner with the GS scenario, and you can't admit you were wrong and GS did the right thing. Heck, baseball teams do it, football teams do it, and GREAT basketball teams do it.

 

[spycam1]

I can see your point. I really can. It might even happen.

However, I unequivically hope that it does not happen. I do not care if it is the last game of the season and the Jazz have only won 15 games and have the worst record locked up. You play a full 48 and do your damn best to win.

As long as I fell the Jazz are fighting and playing to win, regardless of the result, I am all in with a big smile cheering my heart out. If I feel they are giving up and pulling GSTankers level crap I will be pissed and ashamed of the organization.

I respect that, but I'll personally be smiling and cheering as long as I feel the Jazz are fighting to win a CHAMPIONSHIP. If throwing one game is the difference between getting a superstar like Jabari, Wiggins, or Randle--someone who would greatly increase our chances of winning a championship, and the Jazz pass up on that opportunity......I'd be furious.

I don't consider that tanking strategy to be "dishonorable" or whatever, I consider it to simply be part of the game that is the NBA. If you're not breaking rules, I don't consider it to be dirty. If the Jazz do it, and we land someone like Wiggins or Jabari, would you really be complaining?

 

[Stoked]

What is your goal? If putting forth a good effort is your goal, then you play them.

If winning titles is your goal, ala SA, then you sit them. Pop routinely sits his players when they have 5 games in six nights, crazy back to backs, etc. Why? He sees the big picture. Remember last year when we finally beat SA? And the reason we won was because Parker, Duncan and Ginobili sat out, even though they were healthy?

Your "high" road isn't as glamorous or full of good virtue as you think it is. The problem is, you have painted yourself into a corner with the GS scenario, and you can't admit you were wrong and GS did the right thing. Heck, baseball teams do it, football teams do it, and GREAT basketball teams do it.

Yes it is. It is doing things the right way. Teaching the youth to fight, tooth and nail for every win. Teaching them that extra mile to win. That a good game isnt always enough. It also allows you to hold your head high as you know you did things right.

GS did NOT do the right thing. They scammed and cheated their way to what they got. Despite the fact that they got what they want it does not make it right. I could care less that teams in other sports do it. This is simply a black and white thing to me. I want a championship as badly as the next person but I will do it right and not cheat the system to do so.

You can call that what ever you want and belittle it any way you want. But at the end of the day I know I did things right.

 

[Stoked]

I respect that, but I'll personally be smiling and cheering as long as I feel the Jazz are fighting to win a CHAMPIONSHIP. If throwing one game is the difference between getting a superstar like Jabari, Wiggins, or Randle--someone who would greatly increase our chances of winning a championship, and the Jazz pass up on that opportunity......I'd be furious.

I don't consider that tanking strategy to be "dishonorable" or whatever, I consider it to simply be part of the game that is the NBA. If you're not breaking rules, I don't consider it to be dirty. If the Jazz do it, and we land someone like Wiggins or Jabari, would you really be complaining?

That right there is the difference. I do consider it dishonorable. Just because something is legal does not make it moral. I have a problem with putting forth anything but your best effort. I want to cheer for a team that I know will play their heart out and fight for every damn inch. Every. Single. One. Not one that will throw in the towel because it is convenient.

I'd be thrilled with Wiggins or Parker. Thrilled. But pissed that we got them the wrong way (in my opinion). That is all this boils down to. Our opinions on right and wrong in this case. I am fine and secure enough in my own stance to freely allow you yours.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

 

[bigmike]

I'm just tired of "good but not great."

We need a top-flight player. I don't advocate shamelessly throwing games, but tanking is part of the business now. And frankly, I don't find a speck of dishonor in it. The Utah Jazz are a business. They're making a business decision to put a less than stellar product on the court this season so that they can position themselves to be in a better position long-term.

The players get paid a ton of money - they need to play hard to earn those dollars and protect the integrity of the game. But I don't think that the organization is doing anything shameful by setting themselves up for the 2013-2014 season to unfold the same way we all expect it to.

 

[Stoked]

I'm just tired of "good but not great."

We need a top-flight player. I don't advocate shamelessly throwing games, but tanking is part of the business now. And frankly, I don't find a speck of dishonor in it. The Utah Jazz are a business. They're making a business decision to put a less than stellar product on the court this season so that they can position themselves to be in a better position long-term.

The players get paid a ton of money - they need to play hard to earn those dollars and protect the integrity of the game. But I don't think that the organization is doing anything shameful by setting themselves up for the 2013-2014 season to unfold the same way we all expect it to.

With what is happened so far I completely agree. The dishonor would come in if they sit Hayward, Favors... for no reason to purposely lose the game. Or if they fake injury to Burke and Kanter or something.

I am thrilled with what the FO has done. Now don't mess it up with fake crap during the season.

 

[Stifle Tower]

@tanking

The FO may be tanking (I still see it much different than what GSW did.. but meh) but the players will not be.

That should be obvious.

GS intentionally lost games at the end of the season and the coaches and players were in on the fix. I watched almost all of their final 20 or so games and it was blatant. Jackson pulling starters midway through the 4th quarter, guys chucking up shots that had no chance of going in, throwing the ball away on in-bound passes, etc. All the while, the players on the bench were laughing and smiling and Jackson had a grin on his face. That is TANKING!

What Lindsey did IS different. Corbin will coach to the best of his abilities and the players will play as hard as they can. There will be no instructions to commit TO's in the 4th quarter or for Ty to pull the starters. "Tanking" will be the result of having very young players, only one of whom has starting experience, and a very weak bench.

That said, there MIGHT be a more cautious approach taken with injuries. If someone goes out with a hamstring pull or sprained ankle, the Jazz staff could decide to keep that player out until he's 90%+ recovered instead of 70-80%.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is pretty funny. Pretty much nails Phoenix

Word, any team that starts the Morris Twins is going to be awful.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Bills more of a fun journalist for me-- as opposed to one who really hits the nail on the head time, and time again.


And I don't blame him, really. He's far too busy to follow each and every single team in the NBA (unlike Zach Lowe, who I'm pretty sure watches nearly every game of every team).


I love reading his stuff-- but I'm never floored when one of his takes on the Jazz is just flat-out wrong (ie telling us to max Jefferson on TV, dead seriously)

Pretty sure Bill really liked Jefferson during his Boston days, so he still has the homer hard on for him.

 

[UGLI baby]

Pretty sure Bill really liked Jefferson during his Boston days, so he still has the homer hard on for him.

Ya, if he has a fault it's that he's a huge homer sometimes.


dat jazzfanz.com mobile app doe

 

[gregbroncs]

Yes it is. It is doing things the right way. Teaching the youth to fight, tooth and nail for every win. Teaching them that extra mile to win. That a good game isnt always enough. It also allows you to hold your head high as you know you did things right.

GS did NOT do the right thing. They scammed and cheated their way to what they got. Despite the fact that they got what they want it does not make it right. I could care less that teams in other sports do it. This is simply a black and white thing to me. I want a championship as badly as the next person but I will do it right and not cheat the system to do so.

You can call that what ever you want and belittle it any way you want. But at the end of the day I know I did things right.

I agree with Stoked here. I don't like the precedence it sets to tell the players not to do everything they can to win. I don't like the example it sets to sit them when they can play. You want your players and coaches to be all in on trying to win at all times. You don't want to set a bad example to young players that it is okay to lose for selfish reasons.

 

[bigmike]

With what is happened so far I completely agree. The dishonor would come in if they sit Hayward, Favors... for no reason to purposely lose the game. Or if they fake injury to Burke and Kanter or something.

I am thrilled with what the FO has done. Now don't mess it up with fake crap during the season.

This I agree with. Completely. I can't envision the organization shamelessly throwing in the towel, and guys like Favors and Burke missing games with phantom back spasms, strains, yeast infections, etc. I'd like to think that, as an organization, we're more honorable than that.

The beauty is, I don't think we'll have to throw games to lose. Our bench is abysmal, which will require our first 5 to get a LOT of PT. I think we'll be out of steam at the end of the season.

 

[spycam1]

That right there is the difference. I do consider it dishonorable. Just because something is legal does not make it moral. I have a problem with putting forth anything but your best effort. I want to cheer for a team that I know will play their heart out and fight for every damn inch. Every. Single. One. Not one that will throw in the towel because it is convenient.

I'd be thrilled with Wiggins or Parker. Thrilled. But pissed that we got them the wrong way (in my opinion). That is all this boils down to. Our opinions on right and wrong in this case. I am fine and secure enough in my own stance to freely allow you yours.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

So do I. As in, putting forth your best effort to win a CHAMPIONSHIP.

In real life scenarios and such, I try to be a "moral" individual. But when it comes to competitions, like the NBA, I just don't see "morals" present most of the time. That's completely subjective. It's a game. And I'm going to do what it takes to win except for something like purposefully injuring someone or whatever. The system is set up to reward tankers. Everyone knows it. I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of how the system is deliberately designed.

But I think we're on the same page in that we both know we have to simply agree to disagree.

 

[Stifle Tower]

In real life scenarios and such, I try to be a "moral" individual. But when it comes to competitions, like the NBA, I just don't see "morals" present most of the time. That's completely subjective. It's a game. And I'm going to do what it takes to win except for something like purposefully injuring someone or whatever. The system is set up to reward tankers. Everyone knows it. I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of how the system is deliberately designed.

And I think Dennis Lindsey is taking your approach. However, I see little chance of Utah finishing in the bottom 3. To do that, Utah would have needed to follow Philadelphia's model and traded a couple of the core4 for "projects" who were either injured or perhaps Europeans who were not coming over another season. Or Boston's where the entire team save one player was gutted. I'm really not expecting a Wiggins, Parker or Randle. I'd be thrilled if Utah got lucky in the lottery and that happened. However. I see the Jazz finishing in that 5-8 range and using the GS pick to move up, if needed, to snag the player they want from the next tier. No one in their right mind is going to trade a top-3 pick without getting a couple of all-stars in return.

And to finish in that range, I don't think the Jazz need to tank. Just play the core5 thirty minutes each and let the bench play Utah out of leads (or dig big holes). Boston, Philly, Phoenix, Orlando: those teams are going to be bad, really, really bad. I doubt even Corbin can take us to that 15-win level where they'll be...unless the Jazz have injuries.

 

[spycam1]

And I think Dennis Lindsey is taking your approach. However, I see little chance of Utah finishing in the bottom 3. To do that, Utah would have needed to follow Philadelphia's model and traded a couple of the core4 for "projects" who were either injured or perhaps Europeans who were not coming over another season. Or Boston's where the entire team save one player was gutted. I'm really not expecting a Wiggins, Parker or Randle. I'd be thrilled if Utah got lucky in the lottery and that happened. However. I see the Jazz finishing in that 5-8 range and using the GS pick to move up, if needed, to snag the player they want from the next tier. No one in their right mind is going to trade a top-3 pick without getting a couple of all-stars in return.

And to finish in that range, I don't think the Jazz need to tank. Just play the core5 thirty minutes each and let the bench play Utah out of leads (or dig big holes). Boston, Philly, Phoenix, Orlando: those teams are going to be bad, really, really bad. I doubt even Corbin can take us to that 15-win level where they'll be...unless the Jazz have injuries.

Good post. I'm holding on to some hope that we can get a bottom 3 record, but your prediction is a good one.

Where do you predict the GS pick to be? I'm expecting around #20 like in the 2013 draft.



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[Ellipse]

If this team can't win 25 games next season -- barring REAL injuries -- then we are no where near being a championship contender. We either have talent on this team, or we don't. We either win 35 games next season or we can forget about even sniffing a title for the next decade.

 

[Stoked]

If this team can't win 25 games next season -- barring REAL injuries -- then we are no where near being a championship contender. We either have talent on this team, or we don't. We either win 35 games next season or we can forget about even sniffing a title for the next decade.

I think it is much more complex than that.

 

[Ellipse]

I'm just tired of "good but not great."

We need a top-flight player. I don't advocate shamelessly throwing games, but tanking is part of the business now. And frankly, I don't find a speck of dishonor in it. The Utah Jazz are a business. They're making a business decision to put a less than stellar product on the court this season so that they can position themselves to be in a better position long-term.
The players get paid a ton of money - they need to play hard to earn those dollars and protect the integrity of the game. But I don't think that the organization is doing anything shameful by setting themselves up for the 2013-2014 season to unfold the same way we all expect it to.

You imply that they let their veterans walk so that they can get a better draft pick next year. If that is what you meant then I respectfully disagree. There was simply no way to bring Jefferson or Millsap back without hampering the development of what they hope to be superior players. The rotations Corbin used over the last two years made that abundantly clear. If letting Al and Millsap walk leads to a better draft pick, then so be it. But I do not believe their decision was made with next year's draft as the goal.