Bill Simmons Article Discusses Jazz Tank Among Other Things

[gregbroncs]

If this team can't win 25 games next season -- barring REAL injuries -- then we are no where near being a championship contender. We either have talent on this team, or we don't. We either win 35 games next season or we can forget about even sniffing a title for the next decade.

Tell that to the Thunder. They were in a similar position. Young guys lots of talent very little experience. They lost a lot. Now they are one of the 3-4 best teams in the league when healthy.

 

[gregbroncs]

You imply that they let their veterans walk so that they can get a better draft pick next year. If that is what you meant then I respectfully disagree. There was simply no way to bring Jefferson or Millsap back without hampering the development of what they hope to be superior players. The rotations Corbin used over the last two years made that abundantly clear. If letting Al and Millsap walk leads to a better draft pick, then so be it. But I do not believe their decision was made with next year's draft as the goal.

I agree with this. They need to find out what they have in the young guys. If that leads to losses so be it. To be clear our bench is terrible. We will struggle to win games simply because we have 0 depth. We went from one of the deepest teams in the league to one of the worst benches out there. No matter if the young guys prove themselves or not the bench is absolutely going to cost us a lot of games.

 

[Ellipse]

I think it is much more complex than that.

Not really. That is what makes this debate comical. GSW tanked to steal "our" draft pick, but does anyone think they are now in the hunt for a championship? Houston tanked two years in a row to secure Ralph Sampson and Hakeem, yet it took over a decade (and Jordan's retirement) to win their ring. The Spurs got there quicker, but only because Robinson had to serve two years in the Navy after being drafted and then he really did get hurt and they drafted Duncan. Orlando drafted Shak, Cleveland drafted LeBron -- where are their rings?

I agree that if we get a top 3 pick next year, then the banners will likely fly from our rafters. But with the talent we have on this team, we ain't getting a top 3 or even a top 5 pick.

But let the forum keep dreaming that Wiggins is coming; dreams are important for enjoying life.

 

[Ellipse]

Tell that to the Thunder. They were in a similar position. Young guys lots of talent very little experience. They lost a lot. Now they are one of the 3-4 best teams in the league when healthy.

And they played their rookies a lot....

Our "rookies" are entering their 3rd and 4th seasons; they either win or this team is going to become "Hardened" starting with Favors or Hayward in 2014.

 

[Stoked]

Not really. That is what makes this debate comical. GSW tanked to steal "our" draft pick, but does anyone think they are now in the hunt for a championship? Houston tanked two years in a row to secure Ralph Sampson and Hakeem, yet it took over a decade (and Jordan's retirement) to win their ring. The Spurs got there quicker, but only because Robinson had to serve two years in the Navy after being drafted and then he really did get hurt and they drafted Duncan. Orlando drafted Shak, Cleveland drafted LeBron -- where are their rings?

I agree that if we get a top 3 pick next year, then the banners will likely fly from our rafters. But with the talent we have on this team, we ain't getting a top 3 or even a top 5 pick.

But let the forum keep dreaming that Wiggins is coming; dreams are important for enjoying life.

The main part of your post I disagree with is the assumption that anything less than 35 means we have no talent and future. We clearly do. I don't think they will be a bottom 5 team. I say 8-10 pick. The Jazz have no bench. That will limit anything the C6 does.

 

[Ellipse]

The main part of your post I disagree with is the assumption that anything less than 35 means we have no talent and future. We clearly do. I don't think they will be a bottom 5 team. I say 8-10 pick. The Jazz have no bench. That will limit anything the C6 does.

Oh I agree that only winning 33 games doesn't mean our talent sucks; I chose 35 wins to make the point: you can't turn a 25-win team into a champion with a single draft pick, because a 25-win team has serious flaws at more than one position.

 

[fishonjazz]

Oh I agree that only winning 33 games doesn't mean our talent sucks; I chose 35 wins to make the point: you can't turn a 25-win team into a champion with a single draft pick, because a 25-win team has serious flaws at more than one position.

That's why its awesome that the jazz will have money to pick up players in free agency to round out the roster and eliminate some of those flaws that the draft pick doesn't

 

[green]

Oh I agree that only winning 33 games doesn't mean our talent sucks; I chose 35 wins to make the point: you can't turn a 25-win team into a champion with a single draft pick, because a 25-win team has serious flaws at more than one position.

The Jazz have serious flaws at 4 backup positions and one starting position (pg).

 

[green]

Everyone keeps saying this team will be like the 2004 team. Not true. That team had good pg play with Arroyo, Lopez and Mo Williams. We are nowhere near as good as that.

Also, in 2004, Harp and AK played 38 mins a night. I'd put money down that Lindsey has told Corbin to not play anyone that many minutes. AK has been hurt ever since that year, only playing in 41 games the next year. I doubt Lindsey wants to risk wearing out a C4's body by playing them that many minutes.

Also, we don't have Sloan and Johnson anymore. Heck, we don't even have an average NBA coach. We have an awful one.

Finally, Kanter, Favors, and Hayward have NEVER played a full season. You could probably write off every game one of them misses as a loss. 72 games is Hayward's highest number. That is 10 losses right there.

 

[gregbroncs]

Everyone keeps saying this team will be like the 2004 team. Not true. That team had good pg play with Arroyo, Lopez and Mo Williams. We are nowhere near as good as that.

Also, in 2004, Harp and AK played 38 mins a night. I'd put money down that Lindsey has told Corbin to not play anyone that many minutes. AK has been hurt ever since that year, only playing in 41 games the next year. I doubt Lindsey wants to risk wearing out a C4's body by playing them that many minutes.

Also, we don't have Sloan and Johnson anymore. Heck, we don't even have an average NBA coach. We have an awful one.

Finally, Kanter, Favors, and Hayward have NEVER played a full season. You could probably write off every game one of them misses as a loss. 72 games is Hayward's highest number. That is 10 losses right there.

Arroyo was horrible, Lopez was constantly hurt and Mo was a rookie who was not as good as the fans believed. We did not have good PG play.
.
Also I have not seen anyone say this team will be like the 2004 team. Seen vague references to it but that team had proven vets (Harpring, AK). This team has a lot of unproven youth and no depth. I has the potential to be far better than the 04 team but probably won't because of depth and age. And that team had a coach I'm still not convinced this team does.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Good post. I'm holding on to some hope that we can get a bottom 3 record, but your prediction is a good one.

Where do you predict the GS pick to be? I'm expecting around #20 like in the 2013 draft.



Sent from my SPH-L720 using JazzFanz mobile app

My guess is 16/17. No way both Curry and Bogut go w/o injury.

If this team can't win 25 games next season -- barring REAL injuries -- then we are no where near being a championship contender. We either have talent on this team, or we don't. We either win 35 games next season or we can forget about even sniffing a title for the next decade.

I think it is much more complex than that.

That's why its awesome that the jazz will have money to pick up players in free agency to round out the roster and eliminate some of those flaws that the draft pick doesn't

I have written the response to this so much I just can't do it again. Just know, ellipse, you're wrong..
YW.

 

[NCJazz]

Arroyo was horrible, Lopez was constantly hurt and Mo was a rookie who was not as good as the fans believed. We did not have good PG play.
.
Also I have not seen anyone say this team will be like the 2004 team. Seen vague references to it but that team had proven vets (Harpring, AK). This team has a lot of unproven youth and no depth. I has the potential to be far better than the 04 team but probably won't because of depth and age. And that team had a coach I'm still not convinced this team does.

Dont agree with the PG play statement. Arroyo and Lopez formed a very competent duo that year. Played better than you remember. I dont remember Lopez being injured that much that year.

 

[green]

Dont agree with the PG play statement. Arroyo and Lopez formed a very competent duo that year. Played better than you remember. I dont remember Lopez being injured that much that year.

This

 

[dogtoucher]

These are banal, ordinary suppositions to make about this roster. Nothing that hasn't been said before and better. Simmons has been unreadable for years and I doubt he's watched more than 10 Jazz games since Malone + Stockton left. Bad. A bad article

 

[UGLI baby]

Someones butt hurt about Simmons not letting them pet his dog. ^^

 

[davidbenoit]

So I guess the Jazz aren't going to announce any other moves this week like Lindsey hinted at last week.

Lame.

 

[gregbroncs]

Dont agree with the PG play statement. Arroyo and Lopez formed a very competent duo that year. Played better than you remember. I dont remember Lopez being injured that much that year.

You must not remember that Arroyo was all about dribbling until the clock was out so he could throw up a contested stupid jumper repeatedly in most games. He did not run the offense. It was all about him and his #'s. We won due to the play of AK, Harpring and some of the other players. Arroyo is one of the most overrated PG's in Jazz history.
.
Lopez was always hurt. That season he may have avoided it mostly due to limited playing time seemingly because they were afraid he'd get hurt again. I never had a problem with Lopez his body just could not take the pounding of an NBA season. He was the better of those 2 PG's but got less minutes.

 

[freakazoid]

@tanking

The FO may be tanking (I still see it much different than what GSW did.. but meh).

Splitting hairs at best, IMO.

GS intentionally lost games at the end of the season and the coaches and players were in on the fix. I watched almost all of their final 20 or so .

Right, that's why they beat Denver down the stretch and let that pick come down to a coin toss. Makes total sense.

So do I. As in, putting forth your best effort to win a CHAMPIONSHIP.

In real life scenarios and such, I try to be a "moral" individual. But when it comes to competitions, like the NBA, I just don't see "morals" present most of the time. That's completely subjective. It's a game. And I'm going to do what it takes to win except for something like purposefully injuring someone or whatever. The system is set up to reward tankers. Everyone knows it. I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of how the system is deliberately designed.

Thank you for bringing some sanity to this thread. Multiple pos reps coming. I could rant for hours about this, but I just don't have the time and energy for that kind of post nowadays, so I'll try to make a long story short.

Fans get WAY too tripped up over the word tank. Truth be told, all teams have to rebuild at some point, and the worst thing a team can do get stuck in denial about being at that point, and then shoot themselves in the foot by trying to hold on to a mediocre team that isn't going anywhere. Accept the situation for what it is, cut the the dead wood, and then play the odds in order to rebuild as fast as possible, which means finding elite talent. Utah is at a disadvantage when it comes to finding that talent through FA, so like it or not, that means getting your mitts on as many top ten drafts picks as possible, until you come up with a couple diamonds in the rough, God willing, three. The new CBA makes rebuilding even more challenging than before, but that's another topic. Let's just say the window will be shorter and finding quality players on rookie contracts will be absolutely critical.

This whole rebuilding while remaining relevant / rather be mediocre for years than compromise our nobility crap sounds nice and all, but for those who actually swallow that tripe, do yourself a favor and go back and watch the last 20 games or so at the end of the season the year before we drafted Deron, and then report back. Just supposing Utah made an honest effort that year to remain middle of the pack, and instead of putting together a decent team with D-Will, Booze, Memo, Korver, etc., Utah got stuck in mediocrity for the last ten years. I'm guessing Stoked and the like might have a completely different perspective on the situation.

 

[green]

Great post freak.

 

[♪alt13]

Not really. That is what makes this debate comical. GSW tanked to steal "our" draft pick, but does anyone think they are now in the hunt for a championship? Houston tanked two years in a row to secure Ralph Sampson and Hakeem, yet it took over a decade (and Jordan's retirement) to win their ring. The Spurs got there quicker, but only because Robinson had to serve two years in the Navy after being drafted and then he really did get hurt and they drafted Duncan. Orlando drafted Shak, Cleveland drafted LeBron -- where are their rings?

I agree that if we get a top 3 pick next year, then the banners will likely fly from our rafters. But with the talent we have on this team, we ain't getting a top 3 or even a top 5 pick.

But let the forum keep dreaming that Wiggins is coming; dreams are important for enjoying life.

yeah and the bulls horrible 27-55 season in 83/84 didn't do them any favors.