From Mormon Women, a Flood of Requests and Questions on Their Role in the Church | NY Times

[colton]

Yes, I understand and thank you for not taking the conversation offensively. I wouldn't say it if my intentions were to hurt.
....
I hope my point has been made without an agenda of my own. I just want to say to all my LDS friends that I think God would like a little less works in favor of some 'Me' time.

(Posting from choir practice now, don't tell my director...)

Yes, I think you've done a very good job of disagreeing without being disrespectful. I think the best gospel discussions are ones like these, where each person expresses his or her opinion without trying to prove the other wrong.


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[fallenchicken]

What's wrong with just making jello and funeral potatoes?

 

[colton]

On the other hand, Jesus clearly taught to "be ye therefore perfect" and to "go and sin no more". So it's important to continually strive for holiness even as we recognize that everyone falls short at times. And the church provides clear teaching on how to live holy, which I appreciate, and provides opportunities to serve and help others--which certainly also helps one become holy.

I have more to say about this, but I've got to run to church choir practice now or I'll be late.

I've got a few minutes before stake conference starts, so just to elaborate a bit more on this point... when I'm talking about striving to be holy, I'm not saying that I'm holier than THOU, I'm saying that I'm holier than ME. That is, holier than I would be without the doctrines of the LDS church in my life. I truly believe that the church's teachings to (just name a few than spring to mind) read scriptures and pray daily, not drink, not smoke, not gamble, not go shopping or to sporting events on Sunday, shun pornography, pay tithing and make other charitable donations (to the church and others), be invested in the well being of my family and spend quality time with them, strive to listen and respond to the Holy Spirit, give willingly of my time to e.g. teach lessons or help with a youth activity or service project, and so forth, have drawn me closer to God and Christ. And that's part of my own testimony of the truthfulness of the church.



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[Scat]

My point is that living in Utah I see way too many stressed out (including bishops and stake presidents, mission presidents, etc) over measuring up to the standards expected of them. Does God expect much? I don't claim to know His level of expectation. But what I do feel is a spiritual sorrow for those that have not just been excommunicated, but for those that are active but feel like they're drowning in appointed responsibilities.

I'll be honest. This is the main reason why I quit going to church. I got to the point where I felt the church was dominating every aspect of my life and I couldn't find time to do anything that let me unwind let alone anything that I simply enjoyed and brought me happiness. Between being scoutmaster and a home teacher (I was assigned to a family in the ward where both parents had mental issues. Dealing with them was a full time job in and of itself) the final straw came when I was asked to teach Sunday School class in addition to my current duties. I declined. I was also made to feel incredibly guilty about it. I finally decided that serving the Lord should be something that you enjoy and brings you happiness. Not something that you dread and do begrudgingly.

Now, with this in mind you always hear of people that pull away from the church and are ostracized by ward members. I was expecting this but found that nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, there were a few jackasses but I found that for the most part we were still part of the community. I found that I could still help by serving others in a way that had nothing to do with church per se. Simply helping neighbors in ways that would normally cost them lot's of money that they couldn't afford. Doing the brakes on their car. Helping them install a new faucet. My wife and I even took in the grandchildren of a woman that we lived by whose daughter and son-in-law were sent to prison for a year and half. I found these types of actions to be so much more satisfying, enjoyable and rewarding than teaching a bunch of bored sleepy people in class on Sunday morning or dealing with snot nosed scouts that only showed up when they had nothing better to do.

Aside from my long winded response above, I was always taught that even those who fail to "live in the light of Christ" during their time here on earth will be offered the chance to do so upon Christ's return. This is what the Millenium is all about? Only the truly wicked and unrighteous will fail to come unto Christ during this period of time.

 

[cowhide]

I will not debate the merits of the article as I am not LDS and won't claim to know the truth as to their policies.

However, taking the article at face value, I feel a religion has the authority to decide its beliefs just as individuals have the right to decide whether theyre willing to accept them.

I personally don't subscribe to the belief that women shouldn't play a larger role... but I won't get into the reasons.
Having said that, I do find it disturbing about women being subjected to the intimate questioning of men. I feel those issues are solely between the individual and God. Church leaders should teach about repentance, God's grace, and encourage praying to God rather than some dude handling God's business.

Sorry... I got off topic a bit. I just hate the idea that any man has authority to ridicule and/or punish another person (especially one that is deemed unworthy at birth because of gender) when we ALL.. EVERY ONE OF US have sinned and continue to do so.
I'd like to know where these men receive their ridicule for jacking off....

PKM, I agree with what you are saying to a point but men also confess their "sins" to church leaders. Unfortunately, it is worse for women because they do not have the opportunity to do it to women where they might be more comfortable. Personally, I think confessing to any person is ridiculous and is used as a form of control to keep the members in line. I don't believe in judgment nor do I believe in hell. People are flawed and no earthly person is so righteous that he/she should be in judgment of another.

The excuse that it is doctrine seems nonsense to me. The Mormon church has changed its doctrine(polygamy, full priesthood to all males) in the past to accommodate social changes. I agree that any church has a right to have their policies as long as they are not discriminatory and I would be shocked if the church ever allowed women to hold the priesthood. I think they are just as capable as men but the culture is too hard-wired in both men and women for it to change.

 

[cowhide]

I agree with some of the article. Mostly about women being put in awkward positions with leaders.The fight for the Priesthood seems odd to me. As sexist as it sounds the Church wants mothers to be able to spend as much time with their children as possible and the higher callings like Bishop and Stake President are almost like a second job. Also I don't think they realize how important the Primary and Relief Society programs are. Those are strictly run by women and are in charge of teaching children and helping members and the community as a whole. So if they are doing stupid activities well then its the....women that are at fault.

But as one who has daughters I would not feel comfortable them telling a male bishop about their ************ problem when they are teenagers. That is going too far. And if my teenager had a sexual issue that we felt needed help and guidance from our bishop I would want my wife present during the meeting.

Well it does sound sexist because it is rooted in sexism. When the mormon church was created the role of women reflected the times. Women were the property of men and their role was to be the caretaker of the children she brought into this world. This culture is the main reason why women have always taken a subordinate role in the household. However, times have changed as women have rightfully been give more rights. Women today have options unlike in the past. Eventually, the mormon church is going have to adjust. The amount of adjustment will be debated but personally the line has been draw - I can't see the women in the LDS church ever being equal to their male leaders. Why? the belief that GOD ordained men only is too deeply woven into the LDS culture.

However, I highly doubt the church doesn't want men to spend time with their children but in reality these non paying jobs do just that while putting an extra burden on the women.

 

[cowhide]

Pretty much anything the Savior said to anyone else in private we don't have. Most of what we have is what Christ did or said publicly. This is just off the top of my head of what I can remember. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, in regards to "being a member of the Church is a privilege that you have to qualify for" being offensive to you.

Are you saying the Apostles of the Lord should not have given instruction to people because they were sinners, and that we should all just mind our own business and not try to help each other so as to allow each person to find their own way unhindered.

I always thought we were here to help each other and share our burdens. If the Lord saw fit to call apostles to lead his people even though they were sinners, and trusted them to lead and correct his people, I don't see why there cannot be others besides those apostles that can be entrusted with something similar.

No your job is not to worry about other people unless they ask for help. Your job is to be the best person you can be and be a positive influence in the world. Perhaps PKM doesn't think that apostles exist today. FYI, we don't know what Jesus said because the Bible (New Testament) was written years after his life was over. So it is only your belief that Jesus said these things and not actual fact.

To a non-believer, the privilege statement is offensive because it sounds as though you are in some special club which makes you more elite in the eyes of GOD. Throw in the Mormon belief that all other churches are abominations before GOD and perhaps you can see how outsiders see arrogance in the statement. Whether it is intended or not.

In reality joining any church is not a privilege but a simple process called baptism and most people are born into the religion they "choose". In short being in a religion is a choice along with staying in it is also a choice. IF we are all GOD's children then it really doesn't matter what church you belong to since you are a member strictly being a child of GOD which most religions believe. In this case why be a member of a church if you are already a child of GOD? I see no need to be a member of any church run by flawed men.

 

[cowhide]

As infection said, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding going on. I don't know of any LDS who would disagree with you on that. I certainly am not the ultimate judge of anyone, nor are any other LDS--although we do consider a bishop to be a judge in some respects in that they hold church discipline courts if e.g. excommunication may be warranted. But I, for example, would never tell you that you are not getting to Heaven. And I have a couple of friends who are great people but recently left the church--I would similarly never tell them that either. And I doubt even a bishop would say that of someone whom he has just excommunicated.

While your experiences are true it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[cowhide]

For those who say they don't think women In the LDS church will ever receive the priesthood, know that they already do. Women temple works have it and in the early church years some women had it... So it is not out of the realm of possibility!!!

They do not have the full priesthood rights. Blacks use to have the priesthood back during Joesph Smith's time but it was taken away until 1978. So yes there is a possibility but the odds are not worth betting on.

 

[Scat]

They do not have the full priesthood rights. Blacks use to have the priesthood back during Joesph Smith's time but it was taken away until 1978. So yes there is a possibility but the odds are not worth betting on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

 

[Scat]

No your job is not to worry about other people unless they ask for help.

You shouldn't shovel the snow in your elderly neighbor's driveway even though you can see them struggle to stay on top of it? Your intention is to help, but they need to ask for your help first?

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[cowhide]

Same thing though, right? Be honest.

When someone is excommunicated from the LDS church for transgressions, isn't the general view that they are damned? More, much more, importantly, is that the feeling they're left with when handed their walking papers?

Indirectly, yes people feel that way if they still believe in the church and were excommunicated due to sin. However, excommunication is not permanent because a person can repent and return to the church. However, it is nonsense to think that if you don't repent that excommunication means any else but going to hell. You might not hear it or people in the church might not use these exact words but they will call you an apostate. There is nothing worse for a believing mormon than being excommunicated. There is also the public shame of it when they announce the decision in priesthood meeting. So most of the males know and eventually the majority of the ward members find out through gossip.

My father was excommunicated and I felt the shame of it with all the gossiping about it. As I grew up and realized that I never believed in the church, I decided to leave the church, I was not excommunicated but left on my own. People will say you must of been sinning to leave but I hadn't at the time I left the church but I've received a letter from church headquarters that there will be grave eternal consequences if I don't reconsider my decision. I interpreted that as I am going to hell. I am sure many of my friends secretly think that and some have publicly said it. I have lost a few friends but I don't think I am going to hell. I don't believe in hell.

I've never regretted my decision and wish I had made it earlier in life. I have a lot of good memories in the church (socially) and I believe there are many good kind Mormons in the church. I've never tried to recruit anyone out of the church and would never do so because it took me many years to remove myself because it was part of my social circle. I will respectfully discuss my doctrinal and personal issues I have with the LDS church if asked or if an LDS person feels they need to reconvert me. My only hope is that the church addresses some of these social changes with the compassion of Christ instead of the judgmental minds of men. So far they don't have such a good track record. However, I believe churches can and should repent (apologize) just like people.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Indirectly, yes people feel that way if they still believe in the church and were excommunicated due to sin. However, excommunication is not permanent because a person can repent and return to the church. However, it is nonsense to think that if you don't repent that excommunication means any else but going to hell. You might not hear it or people in the church might not use these exact words but they will call you an apostate. There is nothing worse for a believing mormon than being excommunicated. There is also the public shame of it when they announce the decision in priesthood meeting. So most of the males know and eventually the majority of the ward members find out through gossip.

My father was excommunicated and I felt the shame of it with all the gossiping about it. As I grew up and realized that I never believed in the church, I decided to leave the church, I was not excommunicated but left on my own. People will say you must of been sinning to leave but I hadn't at the time I left the church but I've received a letter from church headquarters that there will be grave eternal consequences if I don't reconsider my decision. I interpreted that as I am going to hell. I am sure many of my friends secretly think that and some have publicly said it. I have lost a few friends but I don't think I am going to hell. I don't believe in hell.

I've never regretted my decision and wish I had made it earlier in life. I have a lot of good memories in the church (socially) and I believe there are many good kind Mormons in the church. I've never tried to recruit anyone out of the church and would never do so because it took me many years to remove myself because it was part of my social circle. I will respectfully discuss my doctrinal and personal issues I have with the LDS church if asked or if an LDS person feels they need to reconvert me. My only hope is that the church addresses some of these social changes with the compassion of Christ instead of the judgmental minds of men. So far they don't have such a good track record. However, I believe churches can and should repent (apologize) just like people.

Wow. . LOVE that last sentence.

 

[colton]

While your experiences are true it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Oh, I am sure it happens. To paraphrase Larry Niven, no cause is so noble that you can't find jerks who follow it. But in my experience the vast majority of LDS members are content to leave judging of who is saved and who is not up to the Ultimate Judge.

 

[Zulu]

Oh, I am sure it happens. To paraphrase Larry Niven, no cause is so noble that you can't find jerks who follow it. But in my experience the vast majority of LDS members are content to leave judging of who is saved and who is not up to the Ultimate Judge.

It's tricky.... Somewhat if a catch 22...

In the church and I assume many denominations and other religions we are taught to not only repent of sin but to also avoid it.. We are taught to avoid the very appearance of evil... This is taught in church as don't hang out with those people who sin less you fall into sin!!! Often many church members come off holier-than-thou because of this and very judgey!!!

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I know maybe 15 or so excommunicated. That's not my point, though.

My point is that living in Utah I see way too many stressed out (including bishops and stake presidents, mission presidents, etc) over measuring up to the standards expected of them. Does God expect much? I don't claim to know His level of expectation. But what I do feel is a spiritual sorrow for those that have not just been excommunicated, but for those that are active but feel like they're drowning in appointed responsibilities.

I'm sure this post will come off as a pandering toward grace is greater than works (it's not the meaning, though I do believe that to be true), but my intention is more pure. I simply witness, on a daily basis, very good people so tired and struggling to keep up that they have little time to rest and have fellowship with their Lord and Savior. Am I bashing the LDS church? Please.. no. I just believe it, like others before it, has gotten out of hand and it is slowly replacing God Himself in the lives of the average member. I'm not being cute, at all, when I say that mourns my spirit.

I have seen people stressed and under pressure in regards to church callings and feeling like they have to do too much. In my opinion there is a cultural issue that for some reason people feel like they need to do more, and all activities need to be big, or bigger or more complex than the last one. This sort of thing adds stress and pressure. I believe it is a cultural pressure that doesn't need to be there.

My opinion, which is backed by some of the things I have heard from some church leaders, is that we need to simplify. We don't need a huge complex activity, and in my opinion the complexity most often takes away from the point of the gathering. These activities are supposed to be a support to the families of those that attend. It should be simple, it should have a point, and it should have the Spirit to lift and help and strengthen. When too much is put into it, often those preparing are so stressed they get nothing good out of it. When stressed out, it is very hard to feel the Spirit and be uplifted.

I have also been told, and have also told others that these church callings are not the most important things and are to be a blessing to them and others they serve. Their spouses and families are their number one priority. If they miss a meeting or activity to take care of themselves or their family, that is fine and expected. Things will be fine, and can wait or move on without them if they have something else more important to do.

I really think people don't hear enough, or forget that the church is there to support the families, and while important and helpful, the family is most important.

I do think the stress issues and pressure are unnecessary and take away from the experience and take away from the family. It should be because you want to, not because you feel you have to. Also if you don't feel you can, you shouldn't be made to feel guilty. They should be asking what can be done to help you if you feel too stressed to accept a calling or more responsibility at that time.

 

[babe]

I know maybe 15 or so excommunicated. That's not my point, though.

My point is that living in Utah I see way too many stressed out (including bishops and stake presidents, mission presidents, etc) over measuring up to the standards expected of them. Does God expect much? I don't claim to know His level of expectation. But what I do feel is a spiritual sorrow for those that have not just been excommunicated, but for those that are active but feel like they're drowning in appointed responsibilities.

I'm sure this post will come off as a pandering toward grace is greater than works (it's not the meaning, though I do believe that to be true), but my intention is more pure. I simply witness, on a daily basis, very good people so tired and struggling to keep up that they have little time to rest and have fellowship with their Lord and Savior. Am I bashing the LDS church? Please.. no. I just believe it, like others before it, has gotten out of hand and it is slowly replacing God Himself in the lives of the average member. I'm not being cute, at all, when I say that mourns my spirit.

alright. . . .

Paul seemed to think the original commandment regarding women. . . . Eve being told she would be subject to her husband's leadership. . . . was not a bad thing. He even put it in a positive light, comparing the role of a man to that of Jesus, imploring men to love their wives as Jesus loves His Church, and to serve them the same way. . . .

men and women are not "equal" in the sense of being "equivalent" or identical. Practically every cell in the human body is impacted with the instructions inherent in the hormonal levels of estrogen and testosterone, with their manifold cascading biochemical ramifications. Men and women are different, that's the long and the short of it.

The male brain is different, and it suits having a different role in an interdependent schema. A woman who wants to "be equal" is actually devaluing herself, because it is her differing qualities and capacities that enhance her value. Similarly, a man who wants to be "effeminate" is devaluing himself by not caring to live out the role which maleness is better suited for. . . . .

and, btw, we really need to address our societal practices, and our commercial practices, of flooding our environment with chemicals that mess up our biological signal systems. . . . like plastics with estrogen mimic "plasticizers". . . .

Mormons grew out of the protestant and particularly "Baptist" line of theological thought, and have become a sort of "Neo-Catholic" Church. I am surprised at the resistance being seen today against the GLBT agenda, considering so many of the LDS leaders over the past hundred years have been drawn into the progressive camp, at least privately. I have thought they would make the jump when the courts rule GLBT rights into law, droning on about their mantra "We believe in obeying the Law". I have thought the Mormons would ordain women as well to the Priesthood, and continue their theology of conforming to the trends of society. Mormons never cease to amaze me.

You know, PKM, human beings are hardly ever what they think they are. We all live in some kind of idealized bubble, following a course we can hardly acknowledge as the fact of our existence, the truth of our actions, the problem of our thoughts. . . . .

God does not give us unconditional love. Among the conditions He requires are faith, and choices consistent with His virtues and designs. He might be willing to let us choose, as He is willing to let us learn, but His judgment will rest on our fundamental choice to love Him and value Him over the things/persons that are contrary to Him. The idea of grace only applies as a consequence of that choice, when we make it, for Him.

 

[Dr. Jones]

alright. . . .

Paul seemed to think the original commandment regarding women. . . . Eve being told she would be subject to her husband's leadership. . . . was not a bad thing. He even put it in a positive light, comparing the role of a man to that of Jesus, imploring men to love their wives as Jesus loves His Church, and to serve them the same way. . . .

men and women are not "equal" in the sense of being "equivalent" or identical. Practically every cell in the human body is impacted with the instructions inherent in the hormonal levels of estrogen and testosterone, with their manifold cascading biochemical ramifications. Men and women are different, that's the long and the short of it.

The male brain is different, and it suits having a different role in an interdependent schema. A woman who wants to "be equal" is actually devaluing herself, because it is her differing qualities and capacities that enhance her value. Similarly, a man who wants to be "effeminate" is devaluing himself by not caring to live out the role which maleness is better suited for. . . . .

and, btw, we really need to address our societal practices, and our commercial practices, of flooding our environment with chemicals that mess up our biological signal systems. . . . like plastics with estrogen mimic "plasticizers". . . .

Mormons grew out of the protestant and particularly "Baptist" line of theological thought, and have become a sort of "Neo-Catholic" Church. I am surprised at the resistance being seen today against the GLBT agenda, considering so many of the LDS leaders over the past hundred years have been drawn into the progressive camp, at least privately. I have thought they would make the jump when the courts rule GLBT rights into law, droning on about their mantra "We believe in obeying the Law". I have thought the Mormons would ordain women as well to the Priesthood, and continue their theology of conforming to the trends of society. Mormons never cease to amaze me.

You know, PKM, human beings are hardly ever what they think they are. We all live in some kind of idealized bubble, following a course we can hardly acknowledge as the fact of our existence, the truth of our actions, the problem of our thoughts. . . . .

God does not give us unconditional love. Among the conditions He requires are faith, and choices consistent with His virtues and designs. He might be willing to let us choose, as He is willing to let us learn, but His judgment will rest on our fundamental choice to love Him and value Him over the things/persons that are contrary to Him. The idea of grace only applies as a consequence of that choice, when we make it, for Him.

So do you believe that, generally speaking, the LDS church has allowed the works part of the equation to get out of balance with other similarly and seemingly 'important' things? I am genuinely curious as to your thoughts, in perticular, because you seem to be very fair with your own analysis and speak it as you see it.

 

[babe]

So do you believe that, generally speaking, the LDS church has allowed the works part of the equation to get out of balance with other similarly and seemingly 'important' things? I am genuinely curious as to your thoughts, in perticular, because you seem to be very fair with your own analysis and speak it as you see it.

I have a little movie called "Ring The Bell" that I watch sometimes, and love as you might as well. It is about a sports talent agent who, chasing a baseball talent, runs into some actual Christians. It features "Casting Crowns" in one of their local events/concerts. I get a little sad with the outfits that emphasize the first step of Christianity over all the path that should be the Christian life. Mormons will respond to that emphasis with something like "Faith without Works is Dead", and will expect a member to keep the Word of Wisdom, pay a tithe, and do a lot of other things, calling their "walk" the Gospel. But I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis that it amounts to displacing God in your life with conforming to the "commandments of men".

Jesus said we are all sinners, that all come short of the glory of God. It is inherent in our minds to displace God with some kind of idolatry, some kind of idea of our creature thinking in the place of actual reverence for our Creator. . . . .

I have had this little lecture I wanted to hold forth over my wife for years that would redirect on pretty much my whole vision of her shortcomings. Sunday night, driving back through LA. . . well, at least through the burbs on the 210 Freeway, there was a Calvary Chapel minister holding forth on the First and Second commandments, discussing how idolatry can include our ideas, as well as our stuff and cultural priorities. I wisely shut my pie hole when I saw she was listening in agreement. That minister gave out my would-"ve-been lecture pretty much as I had contemplated, and gave me a platform for some compliments which go down just like pie, with no gagging or choking, to her delight. In her mind, it is just what she has always believed herself, and might have tried to "teach" me.

I sorta think there might be a whole lot of that kind of "sharing" in our faiths if we actually loved one another enough to understand, and maybe less of our penchant for imposing our emphasis on others, in a manner that is in itself making an idol out of our faiths. . . . .

I feel sad about non-LDS Christians, as well as LDS folks, when I'm measuring their ways against what I see as the actual teachings of the scriptures. . . .

 

[One Brow]

men and women are not "equal" in the sense of being "equivalent" or identical. Practically every cell in the human body is impacted with the instructions inherent in the hormonal levels of estrogen and testosterone, with their manifold cascading biochemical ramifications. Men and women are different, that's the long and the short of it.

The male brain is different, and it suits having a different role in an interdependent schema. A woman who wants to "be equal" is actually devaluing herself, because it is her differing qualities and capacities that enhance her value. Similarly, a man who wants to be "effeminate" is devaluing himself by not caring to live out the role which maleness is better suited for. . . . .

While noting that there are differences between the "typical" or "average" man and their female counterpart, applying these differences as applying to all men/women is gender essentialism at its worst, and places both men and women into boxes, many of which are more confining than defining. Personally, I've always looked good in pink.