Championships make stars
Can/Will Lyles make Favors expendable?
- Thread starter The Fresh Prince
- Start date
Championships make stars
Favors and Gobert together is what makes this team special and basically peerless on the defensive end. I understand the importance of spreading the floor, but everyone should understand the importance of those two paired together.
On that note, I am not that stoked or hopeful for Exum. I frankly don't give a rat's *** about quick guards that aren't good shooters, especially since in this case, it makes it especially hard to play Favors and Gobert together on offense. George Hill's game is going to age very nicely and the fit makes more sense.
I am not advocating any moves soon, especially since we have to see how everything comes together. But Exum has to come a LONG way for me to be excited.
On that note, I am not that stoked or hopeful for Exum. I frankly don't give a rat's *** about quick guards that aren't good shooters, especially since in this case, it makes it especially hard to play Favors and Gobert together on offense. George Hill's game is going to age very nicely and the fit makes more sense.
I am not advocating any moves soon, especially since we have to see how everything comes together. But Exum has to come a LONG way for me to be excited.
Miggs
Well-Known Member
This is ROFLable.
People keep saying this about Favors/Gobert, but the Hood/Hayward/Favors/Gobert lineup last year had the 6th best net rating in the entire NBA.
darthlarryboy
Well-Known Member
I've seen this posted elsewhere, but when I look at that stat they are no where close to 6th
Min of 400 minutes they are 57th.
https://stats.nba.com/league/lineup... Season&GroupQuantity=4&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1
Yeah, you're right. I took the BR report at face value, but apparently it was comparing that lineup's net rating to every team's net rating, which is kind of pointless.
My bad.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
Long term, we keep Gobert or Favors but not both. I feel like our playoff experience will tell us more. I just don't see them playing a ton together due to "death lineups".
Answer me this guys. Will Favors eventually be an NBA center due to the "sizing down" of playoff basketball? Or is he only effective at PF now and the next 5 years?
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Answer me this guys. Will Favors eventually be an NBA center due to the "sizing down" of playoff basketball? Or is he only effective at PF now and the next 5 years?
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Gobert is a must keep imo. He is the staple of our defense, the guy that makes everything easier. He's a rare talent. The Jazz were looking for a rim protector like Gobert for 20 years give or take. If I'm doing everything possible to keep just one player on this roster, it's him I'm keeping.
Favors is a PF who can play C against "death lineups".Everything is about the current team you're facing, the matchup. The NBA is becoming less and less position oriented.
green
Well-Known Member
I think Favors best value is at the C position.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
If Gobert has an okay year, Lyles looks like a future stud, and Favors does well, I wonder if we might let Gobert go to move Favors to C. I doubt it goes down like that, but will be interesting to track.
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green
Well-Known Member
It's a numbers game, right? If you go big, you'd better score. If you go big on 10 possessions and score on 5, that's 10 points.
If you go small and shoot threes, 3 possessions gets you 9 points.
So, if you go big, you have to score almost 2/10 times more than going small. That's a HUGE number. That is where Favors & Gobert fall short. They aren't good enough offensively to go big.
That's where Gobert is so appealing to Utah. He can't score, but he can defend on the perimeter and at the rim. Most big guys can't do that. Then, if you could pair Lyles with Gobert...then throw in a pick and roll all star like Exum with Hayward draining threes....
You can see where Utah hopes their future goes. Then you fill in with value free agents who can shoot.
Our future rests in Exum's hands.
Going big adds possessions. Gobert and favors should add offensive boards and secure defensive boards over teams going small. It also allows our perimeter players to be more aggressive and close out on shooters and go for steals. Which limits shots through steals, blocks, forced turnovers and shot clock violations. Favors inside game also frees up our perimeter players. We just need our starters to play well and our lineup will beat small ball. Small ball isn't new it's just popular because one team has has a lot if success with it. They are only playing small ball because it takes advantage of their roster/personnel. We can go small for stretches but that isn't our teams strength we need to play to our strength regardless of what other teams do. Big men aren't going away in the NBA. Big guys will always be better rim protectors, rebounders and have the ability to get really high percentage 2s.
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karl malone
Well-Known Member
Can he? Yes, his offensive potential is that high & having Gobert beside him would obviously help mask some if his defensive deficiencies.
Will he? The only way I see that happening would be due to financial reasons.
The trio of Lyles, Favors, & Gobert is one of our biggest advantages IMO. Lyles wasn't drafted to replace Favors, he was drafted to be the perfect compliment to the Favors/Gobert frontcourt & provide the type of lineup flexibility that will allow us to counter any type of opposing lineup.
Without a superstar on the roster, defense & lineup versatility needs to be our "star". Favors may eventually be replaced by Lyles in the starting lineup but it would likely be due to finances rather than team preference. Hopefully this isn't the case however & we are able to retain all 3 long-term (although that may not be an option unfortunately).
Will he? The only way I see that happening would be due to financial reasons.
The trio of Lyles, Favors, & Gobert is one of our biggest advantages IMO. Lyles wasn't drafted to replace Favors, he was drafted to be the perfect compliment to the Favors/Gobert frontcourt & provide the type of lineup flexibility that will allow us to counter any type of opposing lineup.
Without a superstar on the roster, defense & lineup versatility needs to be our "star". Favors may eventually be replaced by Lyles in the starting lineup but it would likely be due to finances rather than team preference. Hopefully this isn't the case however & we are able to retain all 3 long-term (although that may not be an option unfortunately).
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Perhaps the problem doesn't lie with playing Gobert and Favors together. While I agree the two don't provide optimal spacing, Favs does have a decent midrange game and Gobert poses a threat by rolling to the rim for a high pass and dunk.
Defensively, it's the tandem that makes Utah elite. You can largely negate one of them, but not both when they're on the court together.
Where I think the offense fails is by not complementing those two with 3 other guys who can hit 3's. Gordon is ok, but not great (35%). Hood has been inconsistent and Burks was improving, but has been hurt. So Utah has had PG's who can be left wide open from deep and a plethora of non-shooting wings (Millsap, CJ, etc.).
Let's see what happens when Hill and JJ are added to the mix and teams CANT just sag off the guards and dare them to shoot.
Defensively, it's the tandem that makes Utah elite. You can largely negate one of them, but not both when they're on the court together.
Where I think the offense fails is by not complementing those two with 3 other guys who can hit 3's. Gordon is ok, but not great (35%). Hood has been inconsistent and Burks was improving, but has been hurt. So Utah has had PG's who can be left wide open from deep and a plethora of non-shooting wings (Millsap, CJ, etc.).
Let's see what happens when Hill and JJ are added to the mix and teams CANT just sag off the guards and dare them to shoot.
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green
Well-Known Member
The huge flaw in this argument is that Utah was dead last in the NBA in possessions last year. And we've been at the bottom with Snyder as our coach. You'd have to expect that we would stay there.
The teams with the most possessions per game? Sac, GS, Boston, PHX. Run and gun, shoot the three teams.
Look at it this way. If you shoot 45% from two and get 100 shots a game, you score 90 points.
If you shoot 35% from three and get 100 shots per game, you score 105 points per game. That is a HUGE difference.
If you shoot 30% from three, you'd still score 90 points, the same as the two point %.
That means you can miss 15, yes FIFTEEN, more shots and get the same amount of points.
So, the no brainer train of thought is that you want to shoot as many threes as possible. Playing Favors and Gobert together really kills your three point shot opportunities because 40% of your offense can't shoot the three. That's a HUGE disadvantage for the Jazz. Then toss in a PG who can't hit the three? No wonder we sucked.
Or, as you see with GS, a HUGE advantage is you can play 5 players who can hit the three. If you have five players who can hit the three, you are pretty close to unbeatable, which we saw with the Warriors this year.
green
Well-Known Member
Also, this is where rim protection (Lyles) becomes less important. If Lyles sucks at defense and the guy he defends goes 8/15 that is 16 points. BUT, if Lyles can hit 3 threes and then go 6/15, he scores 15 points
OR, if you can get Lyles to go 6/13, suddenly you have the same amount of points as the guy he is guarding but you have opened up two more shots for another, better teammate to shoot the ball.
Then, if you put Gobert behind Lyles to cover for him, and suddenly Lyles' guy goes 6/15, then suddenly Lyles has scored 15 points on 12 shots and his opponent has only scored 12 points on more shots.
You can't get that efficiency from a PF who can't hit the three, say, like Favors.
And we haven't even added in FT's. If Lyles then gets 5 FT's per game, you have a guy with 12 shots scoring 19-20 points a night.
That is erotic. That is the appeal of a Trey Lyles and Gobert playing together.
OR, if you can get Lyles to go 6/13, suddenly you have the same amount of points as the guy he is guarding but you have opened up two more shots for another, better teammate to shoot the ball.
Then, if you put Gobert behind Lyles to cover for him, and suddenly Lyles' guy goes 6/15, then suddenly Lyles has scored 15 points on 12 shots and his opponent has only scored 12 points on more shots.
You can't get that efficiency from a PF who can't hit the three, say, like Favors.
And we haven't even added in FT's. If Lyles then gets 5 FT's per game, you have a guy with 12 shots scoring 19-20 points a night.
That is erotic. That is the appeal of a Trey Lyles and Gobert playing together.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
The article below highlights how the Jazz almost knocked off the undefeated Warriors early last season. Gobert, Favors and Hayward gave them a chance. Swap out Hill for Neto and Exum for Burke, and I think they'd have pulled it off. Blueprint is there - now they need to execute it.
https://m.deseretnews.com/article/865642782/Video-analysis-Why-the-Jazz-nearly-ended-the-Warriors-undefeated-reign.html?pg=all
Neto and Burke combined for 37 minutes for 4 points, 1 rebound and 4 assists. And Burks chipped in for 19 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Jingles and Booker provided 8 points, 4 rebounds and no assists. The depth of the bench is going to cause problems for teams when they're dealing with Hill/Exum, Burks, Iso Joe and Boris Diaw this year.
https://m.deseretnews.com/article/865642782/Video-analysis-Why-the-Jazz-nearly-ended-the-Warriors-undefeated-reign.html?pg=all
Neto and Burke combined for 37 minutes for 4 points, 1 rebound and 4 assists. And Burks chipped in for 19 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. Jingles and Booker provided 8 points, 4 rebounds and no assists. The depth of the bench is going to cause problems for teams when they're dealing with Hill/Exum, Burks, Iso Joe and Boris Diaw this year.
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I didn't read all of your post I will later. But our team is designed to give us more possessions than our opponent in a game. We are dead last but what is the difference between what we hold opponents too? Obviously teams that run and gun will average more possessions across the season but not against us. Last season also wasn't the best indicator of that due to injuries.
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