Deron Williams would have been fifth-team All-NBA

[NAOS]

And while Deron isn't the best at any singular thing, I think he's in the conversation for everything that isn't rebounding (who cares?) or explosiveness/speed.

FWIW, Chris Paul came up with some PIVOTAL rebounds down the stretch of a few games versus the Lakers this year. I don't take that skill for granted at ANY position on the floor, since it seems that during at long playoff run there are at least 3 games decided by clutch rebounds.

(it's this skill that has attracted me to Burks.... dude rebounds really well for his size, and it seems like they are mostly off of good reads)

 

[NAOS]

Of the Rose/Chris Paul/Westbrook/Rondo/Nash group, who do you believe Deron is presently better than?

Rose and Paul are harder to stop, so if the game were on the line I'd take them. But, I'd take Deron over the other guys in virtually every other scenario.

 

[NUMBERICA]

FWIW, Chris Paul came up with some PIVOTAL rebounds down the stretch of a few games versus the Lakers this year. I don't take that skill for granted at ANY position on the floor, since it seems that during at long playoff run there are at least 3 games decided by clutch rebounds.

(it's this skill that has attracted me to Burks.... dude rebounds really well for his size, and it seems like they are mostly off of good reads)

No you're right. You're right. But on the list of skills you want from a PG, rebounds are near the bottom if I have to choose. But absolutely, rebounds are important and you're happy anytime you can increase your team's rebounding percentage.

For example, on any given night, Rondo and his boarding can't do anything to help me forget that he's a pure tard when he's faced with shooting a wide-open shot. Even on a night where he gets a triple-double. When the chips are down in a playoff game, all you have to do to make him disappear is play Lakers-v-Brewer D and watch the guy crumble. And this is with a team loaded with HOFers. But that's just an example.

 

[MDAV28]

Westbrook is an... impressive scorer. But he's a little bitch for one, he's well on his way to being one of the premier chuckers in the league, and he won't pass. Before it's all said and done, I honestly think he'll be traded.

I would be very happy if the Thunder did something stupid like that considering they are in our division. Would you play him at the 2? He is easily big enough, and no question he can guard that position as well. Even though his assist ratio is not good, playing him at that point seems to be working.. right? I just don't understand trading away a very, very important piece to what could be considered a championship caliber team right now and for many years to come.

My list is D Rose, CP3, D Will, Rondo, Nash, Westbrook btw.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I would be very happy if the Thunder did something stupid like that considering they are in our division. Would you play him at the 2? He is easily big enough, and no question he can guard that position as well. Even though his assist ratio is not good, playing him at that point seems to be working.. right? I just don't understand trading away a very, very important piece to what could be considered a championship caliber team right now and for many years to come.

My list is D Rose, CP3, D Will, Rondo, Nash, Westbrook btw.

I'm not saying this because it IS happening or there's a rumor, just a feeling. He's looking like the worst of Deron Williams in terms of attitude and the guy has NOTHING to be bitching about. As the primary distributor (at least that's his job), he seems far more concerned with getting his 20 shots than helping possibly the most gifted scorer in the game today get the best shots possible.

If Westbrook is complaining NOW when things are great and would only naturally get even better, I think he only gets worse, and I think it will ultimately lead to the Thunder moving on without him. That's assuming he doesn't pull his head out of his ***, but for how young he is you have to be concerned that his attitude will become an aspect to his personality, as oppose as a reaction to things as they happen.

 

[LogGrad98]

Two first teams, 6 second teams.

It is interesting that in a 19-year hall-of-fame career only twice was he viewed as the best point guard in the league, and only 8 times one of the top 2. This tells me that the All-NBA team voting is a lot like the COY voting. It isn't necessarily the best players that get voted in, but rather the players with cachet or the flashes in the pan.

 

[vslice02]

It is interesting that in a 19-year hall-of-fame career only twice was he viewed as the best point guard in the league, and only 8 times one of the top 2. This tells me that the All-NBA team voting is a lot like the COY voting. It isn't necessarily the best players that get voted in, but rather the players with cachet or the flashes in the pan.

That is interesting.
I went back and looked - during that 9-year stretch during which Stockton lead the league in assists - he only was named first-team twice (the 2 years Jordan left to play baseball). The other guards named 1st-team during that stretch were Jordan 7x, Magic 4x, Penny Hardaway 2x, Mark Price 1x, Drexler 1x, Sprewell 1x .

The national media's perception has alot to do w/it, too. Despite playing in Utah - Karl Malone was widely accalimed the best PF in the league - and that showed by 11 consecutive 1st-team All-NBA honors as well as 8 times named a starter in the All-Star game. Despite the records, Stock never got quite that same recognition.

That's a relatively arbitrary benchmark designed to make the stat look impressive through exclusivity.
Make it 20 points and 9.5 assists and Kevin Johnson qualifies as well. Make the time window 2 years longer and Kevin Johnson also makes the cut.
The stat manages to exclude Nash by a full 1.2 ppg, etc etc.

You are correct; widening the parameters will yield more results.

 

[billyshelby]

I honestly think Deron is the best PG in the game. CP3 is right there and better statistically. But nobody has Deron's vision. If he gets on the right team, I think he can make a run at Stock's single season assist record.

 

[MrBlue]

Deron is not overrated. He is underrated. We had an awesome record at one point this year and it was primarily due to his play. Raja Bell was playing huge minutes, Gordon Hayward was giving us nothing, Al Jefferson was struggling and STILL we had a good record in December. That is a testament to how good Deron is. Our record fell apart when he injured his wrist.

 

[jimmyjazz]

That's a relatively arbitrary benchmark designed to make the stat look impressive through exclusivity.

Make it 20 points and 9.5 assists and Kevin Johnson qualifies as well. Make the time window 2 years longer and Kevin Johnson also makes the cut.

The stat manages to exclude Nash by a full 1.2 ppg, etc etc.

I could structure a stat to make Rod Strickland look singular.

Deron officially averaged 20-10 only this season. But, he's been very close in the 3 seasons previous to that: 18.8 ppg and 11.7 apg (missed by 1.2 ppg), 18.7 and 10.5 (1.3 ppg), 21.3 and 9.7 (0.3 apg).

Clearly it's not just not a statistical fluke. Deron's been a 19-20 ppg and 10-11 apg the past 4 seasons. He'll be 27 and is so just entering his prime years.

Of the Rose/Chris Paul/Westbrook/Rondo/Nash group, who do you believe Deron is presently better than?

Nash is on the decline. Rondo reguarly gets abused by DWill. Westbrook is more a scoring PG.

The CP3 vs DWill debate will go on forever. Rose is obviously a better scorer but he's also a guy who needs to take 20-25 shots.

This season, Rose was the no. 1 PG. Deron was top 3. I'd say Deron was sole or tied for no. 2 -- which is rather impressive for a guy whose main shooting/dribbling/passing wrist was injured half the season.

 

[sirkickyass]

Deron officially averaged 20-10 only this season. But, he's been very close in the 3 seasons previous to that: 18.8 ppg and 11.7 apg (missed by 1.2 ppg), 18.7 and 10.5 (1.3 ppg), 21.3 and 9.7 (0.3 apg).

Which is, of course, proof of the arbitrariness of the 20-10 benchmark.

 

[vslice02]

In the past 18 seasons, only Deron Williams and Chris Paul have average atleast 20 points and 10 assists. Regardless of record, it was still a very productive year for Deron.

 

[sirkickyass]

In the past 18 seasons, only Deron Williams and Chris Paul have average atleast 20 points and 10 assists.

Which means less than you think because the entire benchmark is designed to highlight something unique about Deron Williams.

Personally I think it's more meaningful that Deron wasn't in the top 50 players in adjusted +/- this season after being among the league leaders the previous season and ranked fourth even in the all offense metric of PER.

To give you an idea of how idiotic that stat is consider the following:

Over a period of seven seasons only one player spent a season averaging at least 8.9 assists per game and 20.2 points per game. "Regardless of record, it was still a very productive year for [Stephon Marbury]."

Look how uniquely great Stephon was!

And if I want to make it every player but Stephon and Gary Payton I can stretch that out to 12 seasons and I only have to stop there because that's when Tim Hardaway starts breaking the 20-10 mark, which is exactly the reason that your test is capped at the arbitrary number of 18 years.

That kind of exclusive benchmarking is nearly meaningless because you just structure the test around the specific minimum benchmarks that a player meets and use them as the minimum to weed out everyone else in a specific time frame.

 

[jimmyjazz]

Which is, of course, proof of the arbitrariness of the 20-10 benchmark.

Nope. Certainly not proof to your statement that it's mere arbitrariness only made to look stats more impressive that you were talking about. Averaging 19-22 and 9-11 the past 4 seasons is quite an achievement and not a sign of diminishing contribution.

 

[sirkickyass]

Nope. Certainly not proof to your statement that it's mere arbitrariness only made to look stats more impressive that you were talking about. Averaging 19-22 and 9-11 the past 4 seasons is quite an achievement and not a sign of diminishing contribution.

Let me make the point more clearly. That Deron only achieved the benchmark itself once despite three other superficially similarly productive seasons, and all with more team success, indicates that the benchmark itself as an indicator of quality is near meaningless.

 

[jimmyjazz]

Which means less than you think because the entire benchmark is designed to highlight something unique about Deron Williams.

Personally I think it's more meaningful that Deron wasn't in the top 50 players in adjusted +/- this season after being among the league leaders the previous season and ranked fourth even in the all offense metric of PER.

To give you an idea of how idiotic that stat is consider the following:

Over a period of seven seasons only one player spent a season averaging at least 8.9 assists per game and 20.2 points per game. "Regardless of record, it was still a very productive year for [Stephon Marbury]."

Look how uniquely great Stephon was!

And if I want to make it every player but Stephon and Gary Payton I can stretch that out to 12 seasons and I only have to stop there because that's when Tim Hardaway starts breaking the 20-10 mark, which is exactly the reason that your test is capped at the arbitrary number of 18 years.

That kind of exclusive benchmarking is nearly meaningless because you just structure the test around the specific minimum benchmarks that a player meets and use them as the minimum to weed out everyone else in a specific time frame.

Still can't hide the fact the Jazz traded a great player. In the first place, that's how the Jazz got good assets in return. Let's all just see how it all pans out when DWill isn't nursing a bum wrist half the season. Should be interesting.

 

[Justys]

It is very interesting, How will the picks pan out for Utah? Favors? Harris and his future with the Jazz? Utah did trade away an amazing player and I hate to say it but im watching and hoping Dwill gets another star (d-Howard) to play alongside with in Jersey. And How many of us think Dwill will actually stay in Jersey? If No Howard and no Player tag in the new CBA, I think he might be good as gone.

 

[bballfan]

I honestly think Deron is the best PG in the game. CP3 is right there and better statistically. But nobody has Deron's vision. If he gets on the right team, I think he can make a run at Stock's single season assist record.

He has good vision but his vision isn't better than CP3's.

 

[vslice02]

Which means less than you think because the entire benchmark is designed to highlight something unique about Deron Williams. Personally I think it's more meaningful that Deron wasn't in the top 50 players in adjusted +/- this season after being among the league leaders the previous season and ranked fourth even in the all offense metric of PER.

In the past 18 seasons, only two players - Deron Williams and Chris Paul - have average atleast 20 points and 10 assists in a season.
I don't give a **** if you think Deron had a good season or not, that's a fact and supports my original claim that despite the wrist injury and the losing, Deron still had a very productive season statistically.
And as you've often alluded to, yes, expanding the parameters will shockingly yield more results.

Players can have historically great seasons statistically even though some of their other contributions (adjusted +/-, TS%, ect) or their team's success may decline. Kobe averaged 35 ppg in 2006 yet still lost in the first-round; Wilt turned in one of the most dominant seasons ever by averaging 50 & 26 yet his team lost 31 games and didn't win a championship. It's shocking the impact playing on a talented team with a better supporting cast can have.

Oh and by the way...In the past 18 seasons, only two players - Deron Williams and Chris Paul - have average atleast 20 points and 10 assists in a season.

 

[sirkickyass]

Not getting anymore meaningful.

Hey, did you know that over 14 seasons, only Jerry Stackhouse and Michael Jordan had a season where a player averaged at least 29.8 apg, 5.1 apg, and 3.9 rpg.

That's a fact. I'm sure it is very helpful in assessing Stackhouse as a player.