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Enes Kanter still unsigned

Stifle Tower said:
Great point. Also, without Durant, OKC was not going to challenge for a title last season, but they did want to make the playoffs. So they weren't going to pay a ton for Enes. Kanter and his agent were smart; they knew a trade would have to happen after they went public. I'm sure they didn't care about the destination; they just didn't want Enes' value to drop by him being viewed as a 3rd big instead of a starter.

And for OKC, it was a no-brainer. Even had they decided NOT to pay Kanter a huge salary, they gave up very little for a legit chance at making the playoffs. Enes was able to fill in for injured players (I believe both Adams and Ibaka missed games). And they could either keep him by matching an offer, negotiate a new deal or have him come back for one more season for the QO.
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Except they got the worst of all worlds. They missed the playoffs, they gave up assets, and they still ended up signing Kanter for the max. Had they waited, they could have sign and traded Kanter with the Jazz for far less assets or evened out the salary better by giving us a few cast offs like they are trying to get rid of now. I'll bet they would have got him cheaper to boot. I don't think Portland signs Kanter to the max if he was still with the Jazz, they knew OKC HAD to sign him. It was a brilliant troll move.
 
^^^
Perhaps. I wonder if Portland really wanted him. As you said, they knew OKC had to keep him. With Utah, we would have just let him go and Portland would have the $17M "best of his generation" wunderkind.
 
Stifle Tower said:
Hypothetical trades by fans....lol. I guess DL should be fired because we didn't get Paul George. There was never a rumor of any team wanting Kanter, unlike what happened with players like 'Melo. And yes, everyone KNEW Utah would not give or match a huge offer for Enes. He had lost his starting spot to Gobert. Tell me, how many max players come off the bench? DL had two choices: keep a selfish, disgruntled ******* on the team, and try for a sign and trade in the summer, or risk losing him for nothing if he received any kind of high offer. Even worse would be to have him return on the qualifying offer. We both agree Utah didn't get much, but his public demands ended any chance DL had. And if you go back and read the news reports; DL had been trying since December to trade him.

As for the Malone example, that's irrelevant. Kanter didn't want to stay as a backup and the Jazz didn't want a selfish me-first player at his asking price.
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Since when rumours is an indicator of interest? DWill got traded without any prior rumours. At least two teams were interested in giving Kanter max. Likely even more would consider matching max offer sheet for Kanter but didn't bother with producing ones for one reason or another. It means there was an interest in Kanter.

You keep arguing with the point I never made - I don't say we should have kept Kanter. I say we traded him for cheap which just been proven by him receiving a max contract which is unheard of given how little OKC gave up for him. The fact that the Jazz didn't see Kanter as part of the future had no affect on his market value.
 
zbone said:
The fact that the Jazz didn't see Kanter as part of the future had no affect on his market value.
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No, but TV deal did. If no TV deal he'd be 6-9m/yr IMFHO. He's cancer, we won on this deal. Only cigarette smokers pay for cancer. ;)

Honestly I feel like it's more of Kanter not seeing his future with the Jazz, than the other way around.
 
zbone said:
I don't say we should have kept Kanter. I say we traded him for cheap
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We traded him for what we could get.
Or do you think Chicago offered jimmy butler for kanter, New Orleans offered Anthony Davis, and the warriors offered steph curry and Dennis Lindsey was like no thanks we are looking for a first round pick and tibor pleiss?

What should the jazz have done in your opinion?
 
fishonjazz said:
We traded him for what we could get.
Or do you think Chicago offered jimmy butler for kanter, New Orleans offered Anthony Davis, and the warriors offered steph curry and Dennis Lindsey was like no thanks we are looking for a first round pick and tibor pleiss?

What should the jazz have done in your opinion?
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It's too late to seek alternatives when your best offer is 20 cents on the dollar. The fact that you ended in this situation means you ****ed up badly some time earlier.
 
zbone said:
It's too late to seek alternatives when your best offer is 20 cents on the dollar. The fact that you ended in this situation means you ****ed up badly some time earlier.
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No. it means that you drafted an all world center several times better than Enes Kanter almost by accident. This changed the entire dynamic of the situation. Rudy was drafted to be Kanter's backup. He turned out to be much more, giving the Jazz the opportunity to not have to put up with Kanter's drama. If there is no Rudy Gobert, this entire thing goes down way differently. The problem is that no one knew that Rudy Gobert was "Rudy, Eater of Souls" until the last year of Kanter's contract. So yes, we could have gotten more for Kanter by trading him two years ago, but no one dreamed Rudy would be who he is now.

You get a chance to go to the prom with the prom queen you make it happen even if you have to extricate yourself from your current arrangement with the fat stupid girl with the unibrow. You don't obsess that some other guy might be taking that fat stupid unibrow girl to the prom and taking her out for steak and lobster. That is HIS problem. You are there with the prom queen. Enjoy yourself.
 
zbone said:
It's too late to seek alternatives when your best offer is 20 cents on the dollar. The fact that you ended in this situation means you ****ed up badly some time earlier.
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He never had more value than that. We got what we did out of OKC because they had to make a move. Kanter was always a problem. The Jazz got what Kanter was worth and were never getting more than that. They wanted a 1st round pick and got it. Kanter's value to the Jazz was always overstated here. His contract was expiring, before the last year he was simply not worth anything.
 
gregbroncs said:
He never had more value than that. We got what we did out of OKC because they had to make a move. Kanter was always a problem. The Jazz got what Kanter was worth and were never getting more than that. They wanted a 1st round pick and got it. Kanter's value to the Jazz was always overstated here. His contract was expiring, before the last year he was simply not worth anything.
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Care to give an example of a player traded for late first rounder and scraps who gets max money same season?
Because obviously the Jazz can't be the first team to end up with an RFA who about to get max which they aren't prepared to match.
 
zbone said:
It's too late to seek alternatives when your best offer is 20 cents on the dollar. The fact that you ended in this situation means you ****ed up badly some time earlier.
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I ask again.
What should the jazz have done?
 
Stifle Tower said:
Perhaps. I wonder if Portland really wanted him.
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I always wonder about stuff like this after a team offers a max contract to a player that almost certainly will be matched. I think maybe the agents are orchestrating things behind the scenes with wink wink deals. Like, help us with this and we will help you with a contract or player down the road. Wondered the same thing last year with Hayward. Why Charlotte would offer that deal knowing 100% that we were going to match.
 
zbone said:
Fire Corbin after his second season and develop the core properly
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Are you suggesting Kanter was able to put up those numbers in OKC without being developed in Utah? How did he get from where he was as a rookie to where he is now?
 
zbone said:
Fire Corbin after his second season and develop the core properly
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No thanks. I like where this team is at.
If we do what you say then we might not have quin, exum, Gobert, pleiss, or okc draft pick. Plus we would be paying kanter max money (or he would have walked for nothing) to not play defense.
Imo quin, exum, first round pick, pliess and Gobert > overpaid kanter

I think everything has worked out Damn near perfectly for the jazz. Can't wait for next season.
 
My2Cents said:
In what way? and be specific. I'm not interested in generalities.
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AS a Kanter hater, I'll concede the Jazz mismanaged him in Year 2. But that was it.

Year 1: Enes as a rookie. Hadn't played college basketball, extremely raw. Strike shortened season, so short training camp. Enes plays in all 66 games and averages 13 mins/per. I'd say that was pretty fair.

Year 2: Enes stuck behing Big Al. Minutes only increase to 15/per. As said previously, Enes deserved more. Jazz were pushing for the playoffs and went with the veterans, so no trade of Al at the deadline. But watch Enes' footwork and moves. I think he benefitted GREATLY from working with Jefferson.

Year 3: Jazz made Enes the starter by not re-signing Jefferson. Sounds pretty fair to me. Enes was HORRIFIC on defense so he was moved back to a reserve. Then re-instated as a starter later in the year. Averaged just under 27 mins/per. Is that unfair?

Year 4: Again, Jazz show faith in Enes by having him start. Kanter is again a statue on defense. Enes grouses because Favors is getting more time and Gobert is starting to eat into his playing time. Averaged just over 27 mins with Utah before the trade. And 31 mins with OKC after the trade.

At OKC, he is allowed to just hang around the basket, no other responsibilities. At Utah, they wanted him to also be a threat from outside. I guess some could make a case for "mismanagement." He was also held accountable for his defense in Utah. Not so in OKC. Kanter wanted to be the focal point and for the team to be built around him and what HE wanted to do/not do. Still remember what Richard Jefferson said about him on the way out...and we were critical of RJ. But it was true, Kanter just doesn't think defense is important.
 
Interesting article on Kanter. It's not just Jazzfanz haters who recognize what a liability he is defensively. Very interesting that his offensive numbers don't push overall team offense up very much.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/enes-kanter-may-be-one-of-the-last-players-to-cash-in-on-hollow-numbers/

"Without Real Plus-Minus (RPM), for instance, you wouldn’t know that Kanter had the worst on-court defensive influence of any center last season. And without SportVU player tracking data, you wouldn’t know Kanter allowed the highest field goal percentage at the rim of any qualified[SUP]1[/SUP] big man a year ago. The recent advent of deeper NBA data has made it tougher for poor defenders to hide their shortcomings.

Surprisingly (at least to me), Kanter’s offense also suffers on the sabermetric front: He doesn’t appear to help his teams score as efficiently as would be expected from his basic statistics. Only a few players have scored as much, and with as much efficiency,[SUP]2[/SUP] as Kanter has over the past three seasons, but it doesn’t seem to matter. During Kanter’s career, his teams have scored 1.5 fewer points per 100 possessions with him on the floor than without, and — perhaps not coincidentally — he had the second-worst offensive Box Plus/Minus (BPM) of any player in the aforementioned group, and the fifth-worst offensive RPM."


 
zbone said:
Care to give an example of a player traded for late first rounder and scraps who gets max money same season?
Because obviously the Jazz can't be the first team to end up with an RFA who about to get max which they aren't prepared to match.
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first I don't consider what the Jazz got as scraps.
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second, why would I care if it's happened or not before? Have teams lost players because they did not want to match a contract that was offered? Yes they have. That is the only question that matters. The Jazz knew he would get offers they were unwilling to match. Therefore they went out and got what they could.
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And I said then and I feel it's been proven that the Jazz won that trade. They simply traded nothing for something. If they were not going to match they keeping him would have been stupid.
 
Stifle Tower said:
At OKC, he is allowed to just hang around the basket, no other responsibilities. At Utah, they wanted him to also be a threat from outside. I guess some could make a case for "mismanagement." He was also held accountable for his defense in Utah. Not so in OKC. Kanter wanted to be the focal point and for the team to be built around him and what HE wanted to do/not do. Still remember what Richard Jefferson said about him on the way out...and we were critical of RJ. But it was true, Kanter just doesn't think defense is important.
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You are close but this is not the whole story. Kanter repeatedly was either benched or minutes significantly cut after great performances. It's also known Corbin spent zero effort to explain players why this happens. There were also several minor issues between Kanter the org such as affiliated media bashing him and his twitter account crack down after fairly innocent twits. Things like that add up.
 
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