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If the Jazz are blown out tonight...

I was trying to be provocative. I think there's a decent chance Kanter and/or Hayward develop into better players than Al.



What accounts for the lack of spacing? 2013Jamaal and Jefferson hitting at a much lower rate from 3 than 2012Jamaal and Marvin last season? Is Hayward providing more or less spacing than Foye? What of Favors' contributions?

How would you rate Kanter-Favors against Al-Paul on offense? How much worse would they have to be as a duo IF you think they've provided equivalent or better defense? Have they provided better defense?

Randy Foye + Al Jefferson was the basis of our entire offense last year, along with Hayward playing off the ball. We don't have that at all this year because a) Foye is gone, b) Hayward is now the running around with the ball instead of spotting up, and then c) we don't have Al drawing double and triple teams in the post. FWIW, Marvin is a better wing defender and rebounder than Richard Jefferson, but that's a smaller factor.

I would say Kanter is a more effective offensive player than Millsap last year, given his FG%, pts. avg. and offensive rebound rate. Of the four players you mention--Al, Sap, Kanter, Favors, I would say Favors is the least effective offensive player and Al Jefferson is the most effective. Favors can only score in certain situations, like pick-and-roll and from 15-feet out. He's not getting those scoring opportunities due to congestion in the paint. Nonetheless, Favors should be scoring more against his defender than he is currently.
 
Probably worth pointing out that:

12/13: Tinsley-Foye-Marvin-Millsap-Al were outscored 98.8-92.2 per 48 minutes

13/14: Tinsley-Hayward-Jefferson-Favors-Kanter have been outscored 112.3-83.3 per 48 minutes

Are Favors-Kanter a better defensive frontcourt than Millsap-Al?
 
You're missing the point. THIS year's starting unit is far worse than last year's. You've decided to use the "4 on 5" argument, which was used, and more-or-less as valid, last season (I don't think 2013Jamaal-Jefferson is a huge downgrade from 2013Jamaal-Marvin).

The 4-on-5 argument might explain some of the poor starts, but not all. The rest is either random bad luck (and we should expect some reversion to the mean) and/or can be blamed on some combination of Kanter, Favors and Hayward.

There were several posters (I believe you were one of them) who believed that swapping Foye-Millsap-Al with Hayward-Favors-Kanter would lead to better results immediately (and that any drop-off in team performance would be explained by lack of depth). The results couldn't be much worse. The starters (+Tinsley and Jefferson, again IMO roughly equivalent to Tinsley and Marvin) have been atrocious, with a +/- of -29.0 per 48 minutes.
Yes and no to your assertion. I think I've maintained the team might play close to .500 at home, but really struggle on the road. I also predicted a ceiling of 33 wins prior to Trey being hurt and brought that down to mid-20's. That was based on what Portland did last year with good starters and no bench. However, I also cautioned that their starters were proven vets and a ROY. AS for the Jazz, after three tough losses, Utah has crumbled on their FIRST road trip. Hayward was a starter for the latter half of the year so we're essentially swapping RJ for Foye. I AM surprised by the lack of intensity from Favors and Kanter. They're getting dominated inside. I expected more from them. Collectively, they aren't playing much better defensively than the Millsap-Jefferson combo. Offensively, I expected them to look bad early. Jazz lost 4 of their 5 top scorers. They only have Hayward, who is notoriously a slow starter, as their outside threat. Really, though, look at the individual averages for the Core4 through six games. Room for improvement? Certainly. But overall - outside of the TO's - not that bad. Cut the TO's by 5/per game and improve team FT% and the Jazz would probably be 2-4, if not 3-3. Immediately, I think Kanter's lack of defensive rebounds is alarming. Hayward is grabbing more on the defensive end! And obviously, outside of Enes, the others haven't shot very well. It will be interesting to see how these stats change once the Jazz play several more home games. [TABLE="class: data borderTop title"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 17"]Player Averages
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: label"]
[TD="align: left"]Player
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Pos
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]GP
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]GS
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]MPG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FG%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3P%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FT%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]ORG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]DRG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]TRG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]APG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]SPG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]BPG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]TO
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]PF
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]PPG
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="align: left"]Gordon Hayward
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]SG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39.1
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]70.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.3
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="align: left"]Enes Kanter
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]C
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.4
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]88.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16.8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row1"]
[TD="align: left"]Alec Burks
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]PG
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63.6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: row2"]
[TD="align: left"]Derrick Favors
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]PF
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41.4
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.0
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.2
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Really, though, look at the individual averages for the Core4 through six games. Room for improvement? Certainly. But overall - outside of the TO's - not that bad.
Someone has to score. 3 of those 4 players are shooting at below league average TS%. The starters are giving up 112 points per 48 minutes. They're playing terribly.
 
I would so so pissed if Corbin is fired this year. Especially this early.

That means that the Jazz could have had Bledsoe and Horny for Millsap, Al and Corbin but chose to do nothing. Unreal.

That's why I don't want Corbin fired. I want Parker or Wiggins. Corbin May be the worst coach ever. The Jazz have ****ed everything up so far. Don't **** the tank by bringing in a good coach. Lose, lose and lose.

This is pure speculation. There is no evidence that the Jazz turned down an offer for Bledsoe. Provide some non Bleacher Report links. Sterling loved Bledsoe and almost turned down the Reddick deal because he loved Bledsoe. But he was going to trade him for some expiring contracts? Come on...

So, let's say the Kanter deal included the pick that got us Burke. I'd trade Burke and Kanter for Harden.

Bledsoe for Millsap and Burks? Done.

Our starting lineup is still:

Bledsoe
Harden
Hayward
Favors

With potentially Dwight Howard.

You wouldn't give up Burks and Burke for that?

My point is this. The Jazz had a TON of opportunities to improve and decided to do nothing. They had BETTER get Parker or Wiggins or a super star out of all of this. If they don't, then they wasted the last five years and we really are the Timberwolves.

You don't know what they did or tried to do. The Harden rumors came from some Zach Lowe tweets, but you are extrapolating a lot without much in support of your assertions.

And then you mention Howard as a possibility? Lol. Ok.

If only you were the GM - we'd have harden, Bledsoe, Dwight Howard, and probably Lebron next summer.
 
It boils down this: If you can't score in the NBA, you can't do anything.

We don't have anyone that can score.
 
They will keep Corbin for better or worse this year, and they will be OK with the latter. He will probably get a chance next year as well, but be on a shorter leash.

Corbin supporters were saying this last year -- this is the longest leash on record. Damn, I said we should've fired him the beginning of his first year. Now, he's in his third year!
 
This is pure speculation. There is no evidence that the Jazz turned down an offer for Bledsoe. Provide some non Bleacher Report links. Sterling loved Bledsoe and almost turned down the Reddick deal because he loved Bledsoe. But he was going to trade him for some expiring contracts? Come on...



You don't know what they did or tried to do. The Harden rumors came from some Zach Lowe tweets, but you are extrapolating a lot without much in support of your assertions.

And then you mention Howard as a possibility? Lol. Ok.

If only you were the GM - we'd have harden, Bledsoe, Dwight Howard, and probably Lebron next summer.

Absolutely it's speculation. That what this whole entire board is. What if's here, what if's there. That's why there is debate.

The point is this: That Jazz, ever since they decided split second to trade Deron, haven't had a plan until this year. They had better not **** up that plan by dumping Corbin right now. They have had many opportunities to get better, and haven't done anything (Harden, for example. The Jazz could have offered a much better deal than Houston and didn't do it. And who cares where Harden wanted to go, he was a RFA).

I am ok with sucking this year. I have been asking for this since before the strike. BUT, the Jazz had better not get cold feet because some less intelligent fans are mad we are losing. If the Jazz come away with Wiggins/Randle/Parker/Exum (sp?) then it was all worth it. If they sell out, win a couple more games and end up with the 8th pick....Then they just wasted the last four years.
 
30? At the rate we're going, we'll be lucky to win 20, especially if Corbin remains as the coach.

All the more reason to keep Corbin.

Funny, after the all-star break I was screaming from the rooftops to fire Corbin and make Horny the interm-head coach...now all I want is for the Jazz to not fire Corbin. Ha ha.
 
Absolutely it's speculation. That what this whole entire board is. What if's here, what if's there. That's why there is debate.

The point is this: That Jazz, ever since they decided split second to trade Deron, haven't had a plan until this year. They had better not **** up that plan by dumping Corbin right now. They have had many opportunities to get better, and haven't done anything (Harden, for example. The Jazz could have offered a much better deal than Houston and didn't do it. And who cares where Harden wanted to go, he was a RFA).

I am ok with sucking this year. I have been asking for this since before the strike. BUT, the Jazz had better not get cold feet because some less intelligent fans are mad we are losing. If the Jazz come away with Wiggins/Randle/Parker/Exum (sp?) then it was all worth it. If they sell out, win a couple more games and end up with the 8th pick....Then they just wasted the last four years.

It's hard to separate speculation from assertions of fact in your posts.
 
Probably worth pointing out that we are comparing per-48 minutes averages between an entire season-- and 6 games

Fixed. We should hold off the analytics when the season isn't even 2 weeks in.
 
Also last years starting Five had a bench that was good and better than most..., So when starts entered back in the game usually it was still a game!!

Our current starters have no bench to help them out!!!!
 
So, are you saying the Jazz couldn't have offered more than Houston? Kevin Martin, Lamb and two firsts?

You think Kanter, Burks and Shabazz couldn't get it done?
.
Nope. Not what I said at all. What I'm saying is we don't know what was offered. Maybe Utah did offer more and tried to get Harden. Maybe OKC didn't want to trade him within the division. Maybe OKC wanted a proven scorer to replace Harden (evidenced by Martin) which the Jazz didn't have.

Shabazz was slotted to go much higher in the draft than a Jazz pick would have been when the Harden trade happened. Kanter is great, but they were anticipating going against LA and their big front line and already had Perkins and Ibaka - proven defenders. I don't see how Kanter would have fit their team better than another scoring guard at the time. And burks was too unproven and young to be a better option than Martin at the time. And the Jazz picks weren't likely as alluring as the unprotected Toronto pick they got.

I don't think the Harden trade as great and I think our package would have been better for them in hindsight, but I don't believe OKC liked what we had to offer better than Houston. So acting like it was the jazz that rejected a Harden or Bledsoe trade or even refused to discuss parameters just sounds a silly to me.
 
Enes is better than Jonas. They know each other very well and Enes schooled Jonas badly couple of times in youth championships.

I would agree that he WAS better then Jonas in 2009 U-18. And it was one game he badly dominated him, other game was a basically a tie ( 20pts 7/8 fg vs 22pts 8/16fg ). JV was voted by European experts as best young player of Europe in 2011 and 2012, both times ahead of Kanter. https://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_vJpw...id_MUMtgYLNGw6ts8a4RCdLp3.articleMode_on.html.
They are quite different players now though, so not that easy to say who is better and who is not. Kanter is off to a better start this season, way more minutes and higher usage rate, but it has been only 6 games so far. In any way it will be interesting to see how they both look today.
 
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