Job creators? Tax cuts? Unions? Health care? Social Security? HA!

[SaltyDawg]

How long do we let ourselves be held hostage under some false promise that "job creators" have to be paid off in order to bless us with their good graces? These "job creators" are not creating any jobs right now, while they have been enjoying low tax rates for some time.

Take Verizon for example. I'm sure you have heard about the Verizon strike. If you haven't, here's the skinny...

Last year Verizon made $12 billion in profits, got $1 billion in subsidies, and paid $0 in taxes. Their four top executives were paid over $258 million in the past four years.

The strike is due to the fact they they are demanding their workers take pay and benefit cuts of $20,000 a year each, and they also want to outsource a bunch of jobs. Well they already have thousands of jobs outsourced, but they want the green light to outsource even more.

Yeah, this is real good for the middle class.

These guys are demanding major cuts to health care, pensions, and pay. And this at a time when Social Security is under attack, and universal health care is almost considered treason. So what exactly is the middle class supposed to do? If the government providing it is so bad, and big corporations providing it seems absurd, something has to give.

I have a better idea, lets make these jerks pay their fair share. If they threaten us with "job creators will leave" then tell them to get the heck out. If they don't want to be here, they're free to leave whenever they want. But if they leave, they will be prohibited form selling their goods here.

The free market would then take over and someone else could start up a business that is willing to pay their fare share.

The far right seems bent on making the people pay their fair share. Lets make these corporations pay their fare share too. I'm sure none of the striking workers at Verizon have a problem paying their fair share. They pay their taxes, don't ask for any government handouts, and aren't burdens on society. Can the same be said for the big corporation that is trying to take all of that away from them?

Enough is enough. I'm tired of being threatened that we have to let these jerks get a free pass, basically treat them like kings, or else they will force us to live in poverty. They won't hire anyone unless we treat them like kings. And we can't do anything about it because they are so big already that nobody can compete with them. Lets make it clear- you pay your share in taxes, you stop outsourcing jobs, and stop cutting wages and benefits of the middle class while you give huge bonuses to execs (and huge dividends to foreign companies). If you don't like it, get out. And you will not be allowed to sell your products in this country anymore. These are the rules. When you leave, the vacuum it creates in the free market will be filled by someone else willing to play by these rules.

Sources:
https://www.publicampaign.org/reports/artfuldodgers/telecom
https://www.ctj.org/pdf/12corps060111.pdf
https://www.cwa-union.org/news/entry/45000_workers_on_strike_at_verizon#.TkV25r_lq2p

 

[Mission Accomplished]

This is the type of business leader we need. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/16/warren-buffett-charlie-rose-interview_n_928113.html

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

How long do we let ourselves be held hostage under some false promise that "job creators" have to be paid off in order to bless us with their good graces? These "job creators" are not creating any jobs right now, while they have been enjoying low tax rates for some time.

Take Verizon for example. I'm sure you have heard about the Verizon strike. If you haven't, here's the skinny...

Last year Verizon made $12 billion in profits, got $1 billion in subsidies, and paid $0 in taxes. Their four top executives were paid over $258 million in the past four years.

The strike is due to the fact they they are demanding their workers take pay and benefit cuts of $20,000 a year each, and they also want to outsource a bunch of jobs. Well they already have thousands of jobs outsourced, but they want the green light to outsource even more.

Yeah, this is real good for the middle class.

These guys are demanding major cuts to health care, pensions, and pay. And this at a time when Social Security is under attack, and universal health care is almost considered treason. So what exactly is the middle class supposed to do? If the government providing it is so bad, and big corporations providing it seems absurd, something has to give.

I have a better idea, lets make these jerks pay their fair share. If they threaten us with "job creators will leave" then tell them to get the heck out. If they don't want to be here, they're free to leave whenever they want. But if they leave, they will be prohibited form selling their goods here.

The free market would then take over and someone else could start up a business that is willing to pay their fare share.

The far right seems bent on making the people pay their fair share. Lets make these corporations pay their fare share too. I'm sure none of the striking workers at Verizon have a problem paying their fair share. They pay their taxes, don't ask for any government handouts, and aren't burdens on society. Can the same be said for the big corporation that is trying to take all of that away from them?

Enough is enough. I'm tired of being threatened that we have to let these jerks get a free pass, basically treat them like kings, or else they will force us to live in poverty. They won't hire anyone unless we treat them like kings. And we can't do anything about it because they are so big already that nobody can compete with them. Lets make it clear- you pay your share in taxes, you stop outsourcing jobs, and stop cutting wages and benefits of the middle class while you give huge bonuses to execs (and huge dividends to foreign companies). If you don't like it, get out. And you will not be allowed to sell your products in this country anymore. These are the rules. When you leave, the vacuum it creates in the free market will be filled by someone else willing to play by these rules.

Sources:
https://www.publicampaign.org/reports/artfuldodgers/telecom
https://www.ctj.org/pdf/12corps060111.pdf
https://www.cwa-union.org/news/entry/45000_workers_on_strike_at_verizon#.TkV25r_lq2p

Good post. I don't know **** about **** but this is why capitalism and greed frustrate me. Ultimately, those in charge, the richest, will always find ways to get richer. Hell, they're in a position to. And it only hurts the other 98% of the population. I'm not saying I'm anti-capitalism or anti-rich or any such ****. I'm just saying it's movies like Too Big To Fail that make me wanna go Falling Down on a bunch of bigwigs. The financial sector was crumbling and we bail them out. That's fine. But their bonuses and golden parachutes and **** are just absurd. Why the **** are they getting bonuses for running a company into the ground? Absurd. Absolutely absurd.

Done my likely misinformed rant.

 

[The Pearl]

According to Verizon's 2010 financials, they paid nearly $2.5 billion in taxes for FY 2010. VZ's net margins for FY 2010 were 2.4%.

 

[SaltyDawg]

According to Verizon's 2010 financials, they paid nearly $2.5 billion in taxes for FY 2010. VZ's net margins for FY 2010 were 2.4%.

These guys say otherwise:
https://usuncut.org/targets/verizon

Here is their source:
https://markets.on.nytimes.com/rese...KIFI8F4TV2PH4MET6&docFormat=HTM&formType=10-K

 

[The Thriller]

Government redistributing money in favor of the rich/big corporations is good business. In fact, it's being called as necessary to our economy. AS if the economy sucked when taxes were higher under Clinton. If lower taxes always meant better economy, why not just rid ourselves of taxes anyway?

Government redistributing money in favor of everyone else, is called Socialism.

My question is, and I would love for someone on the right to respond, but what's the point in giving more money out to big businesses when everyone else doesn't have any money to buy their products?

In other words, why would a business invest money in new workers to create jobs, when there isn't a necessary demand for that increase?

 

[The Pearl]

These guys say otherwise:
https://usuncut.org/targets/verizon

Here is their source:
https://markets.on.nytimes.com/rese...KIFI8F4TV2PH4MET6&docFormat=HTM&formType=10-K

It clearly states in the referenced 10-K of the amount of provision for income taxes in the income statement and the break out section discussing income taxes. This is a completely fabricated accusation. This is not a defense of Verizon. I don't care about them, but if you are going to defend something you at least better have all the facts.

 

[The Pearl]

Government redistributing money in favor of the rich/big corporations is good business. In fact, it's being called as necessary to our economy. AS if the economy sucked when taxes were higher under Clinton. If lower taxes always meant better economy, why not just rid ourselves of taxes anyway?

Government redistributing money in favor of everyone else, is called Socialism.

My question is, and I would love for someone on the right to respond, but what's the point in giving more money out to big businesses when everyone else doesn't have any money to buy their products?

In other words, why would a business invest money in new workers to create jobs, when there isn't a necessary demand for that increase?

You actually hit on something here. It is a bit of a circular logic in terms of the current corporate tax debate. Tax breaks, bringing money back from offshore, or whatever your particular tax angst to grind is the fact remains that this is largely a consumer balance sheet problem, not our garden variety recession, hence the failure or lack of response to many of the actions taken by the govt. and the fed.

 

[SaltyDawg]

It clearly states in the referenced 10-K of the amount of provision for income taxes in the income statement and the break out section discussing income taxes. This is a completely fabricated accusation. This is not a defense of Verizon. I don't care about them, but if you are going to defend something you at least better have all the facts.

Really? The Wall Street Journal says the same thing:
https://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/06/01/study-finds-some-big-companies-paid-little-in-taxes/

According to the Wall Street Journal:
"Verizon Communications Inc., for example, shows up in CTJ’s study with a -5.9% effective rate for 2010 in the study. By Verizon’s reckoning, though, its effective tax rate was 32.1%, when you clear out some accounting clutter arising from its Verizon Wireless partnership with Vodafone (and even with the clutter, it says its rate was 19.4%).

Verizon includes taxes that have been deferred for various reasons, however. CTJ doesn’t. Taxes can be deferred for a wide variety of reasons such as accelerated depreciation."

So maybe the discrepancy is Verizon deferred those taxes, but hasn't paid them yet? I don't know. All I know is it is all over the net that they haven't paid any taxes the last 2 years. Another link:
https://www.ctj.org/taxjusticedigest/archive/2011/08/verizon_pushes_for_1_billion_i.php

 

[sirkickyass]

Pearl: Is it possible Verizon is offsetting its 2011 tax burden with part of its 2009 losses?

EDIT: So I've gone through the CTJ's report and the relevant sections of Verizon's 10-K. The basis for the CTJ's claim comes from note 13 on the 10-K. I think the CTJ is badly misreading what those numbers mean and others have picked up their interpretation as fact.

 

[The Pearl]

Pearl: Is it possible Verizon is offsetting its 2011 tax burden with part of its 2009 losses?

EDIT: So I've gone through the CTJ's report and the relevant sections of Verizon's 10-K. The basis for the CTJ's claim comes from note 13 on the 10-K. I think the CTJ is badly misreading what those numbers mean and others have picked up their interpretation as fact.

I am no Ben Graham when it comes to comprehensive financial statement analysis and even less competent when the light is focused on the corporate tax particulars. It seems pretty obvious that paid $2.4 Billion of some type of taxes in 2010.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Pearl: Is it possible Verizon is offsetting its 2011 tax burden with part of its 2009 losses?

EDIT: So I've gone through the CTJ's report and the relevant sections of Verizon's 10-K. The basis for the CTJ's claim comes from note 13 on the 10-K. I think the CTJ is badly misreading what those numbers mean and others have picked up their interpretation as fact.

I am no Ben Graham when it comes to comprehensive financial statement analysis and even less competent when the light is focused on the corporate tax particulars. It seems pretty obvious that paid $2.4 Billion of some type of taxes in 2010.

Well I am definitely not expert in this area, so I'll be pretty safe in assuming the corporate lawyer and accountant(?) know more than me. However, I have to ask, are you guys saying the Wall Street Journal's assessment was wrong? They seem to be pretty clear in saying that the discrepancy between Verizon's financials and CTJ's report lies in the fact that Verizon deferred those taxes but hasn't paid them.

Again, I don't know enough about this to find the answer myself. I know the Wall Street Journal (and probably everyone else that wrote an article on this and made the claims) knows more about it than me (as you guys probably do too). So I am only trying to get clarification, not saying anyone is wrong.

 

[TroutBum]

That might be the most humble post Salty has ever made. Oh, how it must pain him.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I'll try to have my gf look at their financials when she gets a chance.

 

[Deleted member 848]

That is some babyback-******** if Salty's figures prove correct. Canadas a lot more left than the States and I still want them to raise taxes. I think the States could benefit a bit from looking at there northern neighbours in terms of some economic policies; even though we only house a tenth of your population. Socialism pwns.

 

[The-Joker]

I'll try to have my gf look at their financials when she gets a chance.

Your the trophy husband... arencha serp?

 

[The Pearl]

Well I am definitely not expert in this area, so I'll be pretty safe in assuming the corporate lawyer and accountant(?) know more than me. However, I have to ask, are you guys saying the Wall Street Journal's assessment was wrong? They seem to be pretty clear in saying that the discrepancy between Verizon's financials and CTJ's report lies in the fact that Verizon deferred those taxes but hasn't paid them.

Again, I don't know enough about this to find the answer myself. I know the Wall Street Journal (and probably everyone else that wrote an article on this and made the claims) knows more about it than me (as you guys probably do too). So I am only trying to get clarification, not saying anyone is wrong.

The problem is that garbage like this wildly overstates the profitability of corporate america and understates the taxes they pay. Most businesses, even most of the corporate titans, have single digit net margins and are really crappy businesses. Verizon is a crappy business. The margins suck, it is capital intensive, and requires significant employees.

Now I don't have a problem with subjective puffery to prove a political point. That is part of the game. The problem we have here is these little things called financial statements where things like this can be fact checked. Granted, there is some room for debate as corporate taxation is a complex and total mess, but it is a long way morally between tax fraud and whether the tax rates should be raised or lower. Those are two wildly different debates.

Are there absurd tax breaks rendered to all types of companies? Of course. Should these be addressed? Absolutely. Is there debate on a better and more fair corporate tax structure? No doubt. But be careful what you wish for and don't fall for the nonsense by the politicians and other groups who stand to benefit that American business is a cash cow that can be endlessly milked without any consequences.


The very nature of labor is getting a generational overhaul right before our very eyes and there is nothing anybody in Washington is going to do to stop it.

 

[SaltyDawg]

The problem is that garbage like this wildly overstates the profitability of corporate america and understates the taxes they pay. Most businesses, even most of the corporate titans, have single digit net margins and are really crappy businesses. Verizon is a crappy business. The margins suck, it is capital intensive, and requires significant employees.

Now I don't have a problem with subjective puffery to prove a political point. That is part of the game. The problem we have here is these little things called financial statements where things like this can be fact checked. Granted, there is some room for debate as corporate taxation is a complex and total mess, but it is a long way morally between tax fraud and whether the tax rates should be raised or lower. Those are two wildly different debates.

Are there absurd tax breaks rendered to all types of companies? Of course. Should these be addressed? Absolutely. Is there debate on a better and more fair corporate tax structure? No doubt. But be careful what you wish for and don't fall for the nonsense by the politicians and other groups who stand to benefit that American business is a cash cow that can be endlessly milked without any consequences.


The very nature of labor is getting a generational overhaul right before our very eyes and there is nothing anybody in Washington is going to do to stop it.

Well I understand all that, lol.

So is the consensus that the Wall Street Journal was correct in their assesment, and that the discrepancy between the CTJ report and the Verizon financials stems from the fact that Verizon did not pay the taxes, but did defer them to a future date?

I am trying to determine if the CTJ fabricated the claim (you said it was fabricated in an earlier post), if the CTJ just did not understand what they were seeing and everyone else ran with it (like Sirkickyass said in an earlier post), or if the CTJ was technically correct that Verizon didn't pay any taxes, but Verizon deferred them to a future date like the Wall Street Journal said.

If Verizon deferred them, I agree that it is better than tax fraud. But I also don't think it's as good as paying them either. If they are profiting 12 billion, and paying billions in dividends to a foreign company, it's pretty sleazy to not pay a dime in taxes while simultaneously receiving a billion in federal subsidies, paying all of your top execs hundreds of millions in salary and bonuses, outsourcing middle class jobs, and asking the middle class workers to take a $20,000 reduction each.

I know they are only playing by the rules set forth so they aren't committing any crimes. But that is the point- the rules set forth are killing the middle class, and helping companies like Verizon get richer. Giving more money to the "job creators" doesn't always trickle down like they claim it will, and Verizon is a prime example. Whether they eventually pay those taxes or not, they did not pay any last year (assuming the Wall Street Journal's assessment is correct).

 

[billyshelby]

It sounds like you think the solution is to simply increase the corporate tax rate. We already have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. So maybe the solution is to increase the effective corporate tax rate by overhauling the tax code. But what if that only drives more manufacturing/operations overseas? I'm not saying there isn't a solution, only that it isn't so simple as shaking a populist fist at the alleged exploitation of corporations like Verizon, Mobil, or any of the multinationals.

I have no doubt that an Old Boys Network has corrupted the tax code. But given the complexities of globalization, I doubt the solution is as simple as repairing the tax code.

 

[SaltyDawg]

It sounds like you think the solution is to simply increase the corporate tax rate. We already have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. So maybe the solution is to increase the effective corporate tax rate by overhauling the tax code. But what if that only drives more manufacturing/operations overseas? I'm not saying there isn't a solution, only that it isn't so simple as shaking a populist fist at the alleged exploitation of corporations like Verizon, Mobil, or any of the multinationals.

I have no doubt that an Old Boys Network has corrupted the tax code. But given the complexities of globalization, I doubt the solution is as simple as repairing the tax code.

Well I don't think just raising the tax rate is the answer either. The loopholes definitely have to be closed.

As for outsourcing, I think they should be banned from selling their products in this country. If you can't hire Americans, you shouldn't be selling to Americans either.

Of course exceptions could be made for companies that are legitimately based overseas. But those overseas companies should be paying a much higher tax rate with no loopholes.

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