Kanter and Burke have got to go

[Game6Conley]

Where are you getting that from? Trey Burke is 6'1". Tony Parker is 6'2"

https://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2579260/trey-burke
https://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1015/tony-parker

I watched a bunch of opposing teams broadcasts this season and his height, or listed height was questioned more than a few times.

I can remember at the very beginning of one of the Knicks losses, Trey lost Raymond Felton on the perimeter for a wide open 3, and then inexplicably lost Felton again, and allowed a Layup in halfcourt offense to the fattest PG in the league. By this time, 4 minutes into the game, the Knicks announcers had brought up Trey's listed height more than once. The same listed height as Felton, Mike Breen said Trey looked 2" shorter and more like 5'11.

Was Trey towering over Kemba Walker when they played? im trying to find a pic from that game.

 

[fishonjazz]

Just using my eyeballs i would say trey is 6 feet even

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Trey will never be a top ten PG, but I think he can run a team well and is clutch which is important because some of our other guys seem to crap the bed late in games. He is replaceable but until you have someone really good to replace him with you keep him. This year will tell us a lot about what trey can become. Even if we got Exum I think we keep trey. I think they are compatible, but who really knows with Exum. Exum seems to have some similar characteristics to burks and I thought trey and Alec worked well together this year.

 

[GVC]

Didja know the core 5 all averaged over 15 pts a game when they started those last five games or so? Just need some bench depth (from the draft) and some experience with a coach.

Those 5 started games 79-81 together. That lineup played 48 minutes over those 3 games, and were outscored by 13 per basketball-reference.com.

LINK

edit: Trey, Alec, Gordo, Kanter and Favs scored a combined 246 points over those 3 games, which comes out to an average of 16.4 points per game per player.

note: For the sake of full disclosure, NBA.com and nbawowy.com have slightly different stats for that lineup over those 3 games. All have the lineup at 48 minutes, but NBA.com and nbawowy.com have the lineup as only -12 and -10 respectively. I don't know what accounts for this difference, although I suspect the counting of free throws that straddle a substitution may play a role.

 

[Doublea]

Here's a picture to compare Burke's height with.....

 

[GVC]

Trey was measured at the 2013 NBA combine. 5'11.75'' without shoes, which is a legitimate 6'1'' by standard with-shoes NBA measurements.

 

[Willie]

Trey's height and length aren't really problematic, in my opinion. His defense and his propensity to call his own number on offense -- those are the problems. Well, then there's his pace of play, but hopefully Snyder snuffs that out in the first half of training camp. The latter seems like the most fixable problem. I'd feel no remorse if Trey was traded. Hell, I'm even starting to think that Snyder may prefer to stock his backcourt with drivers... and that's not Trey.

 

[Tarkanian]

Spurs would be hopeless this series without Diaw. Dude is absolutely destroying the heat. Having two-passing big-men is a complete matchup-nightmare, and it's totally opened my eyes as to what our team needs offensively.

a great coach,
great C-PF, future HOF'er
wonderful score-first PG,
a clutch SG
Kawhi Leonard.
You value Diaw in "his" environment. Put him in a Jazz roster he is worthless (or so he'd look)!

 

[Harcher]

you don't believe in the premise of a thread that discusses trading players? Are you aware you're on a sports message board?

The title of the thread is about SPECIFIC players , not about a generalized theory of trading.
I don't believe in the premise that Kanter And Burke have to go...

 

[GVC]

note: For the sake of full disclosure, NBA.com and nbawowy.com have slightly different stats for that lineup over those 3 games. All have the lineup at 48 minutes, but NBA.com and nbawowy.com have the lineup as only -12 and -10 respectively. I don't know what accounts for this difference, although I suspect the counting of free throws that straddle a substitution may play a role.

Just took another look at all 3 (NBA.com, nbawowy.com, basketball-reference.com). They all have the same field goal and 3-point field goal statistics. The difference is in free throws.

I went through the espn.com play-by-play for the 3 games, and while I still get the 48 minutes that the other 3 get, I get a different score than the other 3 sites. For my calculations, points from free throws (from fouls or techs) were charged to the lineup that was on the floor when the foul/tech occurred. Here are the total scores from me and the 3 sites:

Me: 111-123 = -12 (48:12)
NBA: 113-125 = -12 (48 minutes)
BR: 112-125 = -13 (48.3 minutes - pretty sure they round to the nearest .1 seconds for each game and then sum)
nbawowy: 112-122 = -10 (48 minutes)


Strange...

 

[GVC]

You value Diaw in "his" environment. Put him in a Jazz roster he is worthless (or so he'd look)!

If you're saying that players whose strength is making the right team play instead of overpowering his opposite number would look "worthless" on a team full of players who have no clue how to play team basketball, I suppose that's true. Teams filled with knuckle-heads generally don't win though. Only 1 of the 15 post-Jordan championships has been won by an arguably "stupid" team, the 2006 Heat (and honestly, I don't know enough about this team to feel confident in this assessment). The other 14 (soon to be 15) have relied heavily on smart teamplay to win.

Diaw is valuable to teams with players who know how to play basketball.

This is the biggest reason I'm low on Kanter at the moment. He just doesn't get it. He may find a feel for the game eventually, but he may not. We'll see.

 

[da ThRONe]

If you're saying that players whose strength is making the right team play instead of overpowering his opposite number would look "worthless" on a team full of players who have no clue how to play team basketball, I suppose that's true. Teams filled with knuckle-heads generally don't win though. Only 1 of the 15 post-Jordan championships has been won by an arguably "stupid" team, the 2006 Heat (and honestly, I don't know enough about this team to feel confident in this assessment). The other 14 (soon to be 15) have relied heavily on smart teamplay to win.

Diaw is valuable to teams with players who know how to play basketball.

This is the biggest reason I'm low on Kanter at the moment. He just doesn't get it. He may find a feel for the game eventually, but he may not. We'll see.

You can get away with Kanter being a black hole of sorts on offense. That can be managed with good coaching and high IQ for the other 4 players especially the primary ball handler. It's defensively where his effort and feel for the game has to get better.

 

[The Fresh Prince]

Damn. This was Burkes rookie season and we already want to cash out and say "We didn't see many flashes of greatness in him." It was his rookie season! Same with Manger. Corbins coaching has a lot to do with how our team played.

 

[addictionary]

Damn. This was Burkes rookie season and we already want to cash out and say "We didn't see many flashes of greatness in him." It was his rookie season! Same with Manger. Corbins coaching has a lot to do with how our team played.

burke' career is literally over after that season that he failed to average cp3's current stats and curry's touch.


he should be tarred and feathered.

 

[fishonjazz]

If you're saying that players whose strength is making the right team play instead of overpowering his opposite number would look "worthless" on a team full of players who have no clue how to play team basketball, I suppose that's true. Teams filled with knuckle-heads generally don't win though. Only 1 of the 15 post-Jordan championships has been won by an arguably "stupid" team, the 2006 Heat (and honestly, I don't know enough about this team to feel confident in this assessment). The other 14 (soon to be 15) have relied heavily on smart teamplay to win.

Diaw is valuable to teams with players who know how to play basketball.

This is the biggest reason I'm low on Kanter at the moment. He just doesn't get it. He may find a feel for the game eventually, but he may not. We'll see.

I think you make a good point about diaw playing on a team of smart players who "know how to play basketball."

Now i would ask the question Were diaw, parker, duncan, splitter, mills, bellinelli and ginobli all just born with the "know how to play basketball" gene and all of our guys simply born without it.
Or does it help that all of those guys have tons of experience, chemistry, playing time together, and popovich for a coach.

If "knowing how to play basketball" is just a gene that you are born with and our dumb team just doesn't have it then i think we are screwed.
Hopefully getting alot of time on the court together and having a few years to develop chemisty + snyder evolving into a great coach will take our dumb team into the realm of the intelligent teams

 

[GVC]

I think you make a good point about diaw playing on a team of smart players who "know how to play basketball."

Now i would ask the question Were diaw, parker, duncan, splitter, mills, bellinelli and ginobli all just born with the "know how to play basketball" gene and all of our guys simply born without it.
Or does it help that all of those guys have tons of experience, chemistry, playing time together, and popovich for a coach.

If "knowing how to play basketball" is just a gene that you are born with and our dumb team just doesn't have it then i think we are screwed.
Hopefully getting alot of time on the court together and having a few years to develop chemisty + snyder evolving into a great coach will take our dumb team into the realm of the intelligent teams

I think it's just as difficult, if not more difficult, to turn a dumb player into a smart player as it is to turn an un-athletic/un-skilled player into an athletic/skilled player. Fans tend to take the mental side of the game for granted.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think it's just as difficult, if not more difficult, to turn a dumb player into a smart player as it is to turn an un-athletic/un-skilled player into an athletic/skilled player. Fans tend to take the mental side of the game for granted.

so what should the jazz do if we have a team full of crappy dumb players?

do you think we can trade some crappy dumb players for some good smart ones? or are we simply screwed for a minimum of 5 more years or so. (the time it may take to draft and sign a bunch of good smart players and get then developed and playing as a team ro replace our current guys)

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

so what should the jazz do if we have a team full of crappy dumb players?

do you think we can trade some crappy dumb players for some good smart ones? or are we simply screwed for a minimum of 5 more years or so. (the time it may take to draft and sign a bunch of good smart players and get then developed and playing as a team ro replace our current guys)

you're in the correct thread, hombre!

Tarde teh dumb ones.

 

[GVC]

so what should the jazz do if we have a team full of crappy dumb players?

do you think we can trade some crappy dumb players for some good smart ones? or are we simply screwed for a minimum of 5 more years or so. (the time it may take to draft and sign a bunch of good smart players and get then developed and playing as a team ro replace our current guys)

The Jazz aren't a team full of crappy dumb players:

Trey and Gordo are plenty smart, but are lacking physically (I know many disagree with this physical assessment).

Alec and Favors are more gifted physically, albeit not quite elite (at least as far as Alec's strength is concerned). They also seem to have an adequate feel for the game overall.

Kanter seems lost out there a lot of the time.


Those Deron-Boozer teams were incredibly intelligent. Despite the success of smart teams, intelligence still seems to be undervalued by GMs, which partly explains how San Antonio is able to assemble amazing, deep teams without going into the LT. With that said, as opposed to a lot of individual skills (especially rebounding and on-ball scoring), which seem to display diminishing returns, there seem to be increasing returns to passing and overall team play. That is, if you have a team with very little talent or smarts, finding a player who does something well individually (eg. Al and on-ball scoring) will have a greater impact than adding a smart player. Smarts become increasingly valuable as you have more smarts. Having the patience to build a team correctly can be difficult, as shiny, young players with flashy individual skills put more people in seats in the short-run.

 

[fishonjazz]

The Jazz aren't a team full of crappy dumb players:

Trey and Gordo are plenty smart, but are lacking physically (I know many disagree with this physical assessment).

Alec and Favors are more gifted physically, albeit not quite elite (at least as far as Alec's strength is concerned). They also seem to have an adequate feel for the game overall.

Kanter seems lost out there a lot of the time.


Those Deron-Boozer teams were incredibly intelligent. Despite the success of smart teams, intelligence still seems to be undervalued by GMs, which partly explains how San Antonio is able to assemble amazing, deep teams without going into the LT. With that said, as opposed to a lot of individual skills (especially rebounding and on-ball scoring), which seem to display diminishing returns, there seem to be increasing returns to passing and overall team play. That is, if you have a team with very little talent or smarts, finding a player who does something well individually (eg. Al and on-ball scoring) will have a greater impact than adding a smart player. Smarts become increasingly valuable as you have more smarts. Having the patience to build a team correctly can be difficult, as shiny, young players with flashy individual skills put more people in seats in the short-run.

good answer