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Kanter and Burke have got to go

As for the actual topic, I don't think the Jazz should be in any rush to dump Kanter or Burke unless it helps them acquire elite-level talent.

Burke made a big jump from year 1 to year 2 at Michigan, so it's probably worth seeing what he comes back with after this summer. It seems reasonable to believe that he projects as a serviceable starting point guard. Is he replaceable? Probably, but dumping him for the sake of dumping him doesn't make a lot of sense.

Kanter still has an interesting set of skills. He seemed to take a couple steps backward this past season, but he may still figure it out. Who knows?
 
GVC said:
As for the actual topic, I don't think the Jazz should be in any rush to dump Kanter or Burke unless it helps them acquire elite-level talent.

Burke made a big jump from year 1 to year 2 at Michigan, so it's probably worth seeing what he comes back with after this summer. It seems reasonable to believe that he projects as a serviceable starting point guard. Is he replaceable? Probably, but dumping him for the sake of dumping him doesn't make a lot of sense.

Kanter still has an interesting set of skills. He seemed to take a couple steps backward this past season, but he may still figure it out. Who knows?
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This is something I keep coming back to. I think the odds that Trey improves considerably this year are much higher than that he doesn't. Dude is smart and has grit.
 
GVC said:
I never said I was looking for stats. An argument that better explains how the talent on the roster could have been better used would be nice. FWIW, I've never said that Corbin is a great tactician. I simply don't understand the game well enough to make that judgment. What bothers me is that most of the anti-Corbin rhetoric is about mismanagement of the young players' roles and minutes. Yet, the young guys all played decent minutes, and were given ample opportunity on-ball. To be able to put all of them in on-ball situations, their minutes had to be staggered. That players performed better in the lineups they were ultimately used in than in other lineups seems to support the notion that Corbin did a good job using lineups where players could be successful. Playing all 5 young guys together would have relegated 2-3 of them to secondary roles, and would have left the Jazz with a completely ineffective bench. The Jazz would have lost more games, and the young players would have had less opportunity to grow as facilitators. Let's not forget that the Jazz were reasonably competitive for a stretch in the middle of the season. Seems Corbin was balancing winning and youth development fairly well.

I get that most don't agree, but I really don't think I've been presented with much of a counterargument. Player performance is primarily the responsibility of the players. If players are performing poorly, we should be critical of them before pointing fingers elsewhere. I'm not convinced that the anti-Corbin brigade is doing anything more than finding a scapegoat to protect their over-assessment of the young talent on the team.
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I disagree about the effects of coaching. For example it made no sense to play Burke off the ball and allow Hayward to be the primary ball handler. That took two guys strength and turned them into weakness. Hayward is better off ball as a spot up shooter, slasher, and secondary play maker and Burke is better as the primary ball handler. This was just one example of a simple bad coaching decision that lead to bad seasons for both players as they were forced into roles that didn't suit the either.
 
da ThRONe said:
I disagree about the effects of coaching. For example it made no sense to play Burke off the ball and allow Hayward to be the primary ball handler.
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Are you stoned? Burke was the 2ndary ball handler for what, 3 games? (And it wasn't to Hayward in those anyway.) Also, who didn't appreciate Corbin experimenting and pushing Trey to grow in his off ball capabilities for a few games? Pretty much everyone here did, so why are you being so whiney about it months after the fact?

****in malcontents.
 
NUMBERICA said:
This is something I keep coming back to. I think the odds that Trey improves considerably this year are much higher than that he doesn't. Dude is smart and has grit.
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But how large a jump? I don't see him as ever being top 5 for the position, and for that he's easily replaceable for very reasonable money (about $6mm per).

I don't really want to trade him, I like his grit, but from an asset standpoint I don't see a reason to hang on out of loyalty to draft picks or because I'm a fan of his overall attitude and demeanor.
 
franklin said:
Are you stoned? Burke was the 2ndary ball handler for what, 3 games? (And it wasn't to Hayward in those anyway.) Also, who didn't appreciate Corbin experimenting and pushing Trey to grow in his off ball capabilities for a few games? Pretty much everyone here did, so why are you being so whiney about it months after the fact?

****in malcontents.
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What are you talking about? Hayward was the primary ball handler the majority of the season.
 
franklin said:
But how large a jump? I don't see him as ever being top 5 for the position, and for that he's easily replaceable for very reasonable money (about $6mm per).

I don't really want to trade him, I like his grit, but from an asset standpoint I don't see a reason to hang on out of loyalty to draft picks or because I'm a fan of his overall attitude and demeanor.
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I didn't say he was untouchable. I'm saying let's see what we have and don't trade a guy when his value can probably be better. The Jazz also don't have another point guard as far as I can see, and that's not nothing.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I didn't say he was untouchable. I'm saying let's see what we have and don't trade a guy when his value can probably be better. The Jazz also don't have another point guard as far as I can see, and that's not nothing.
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Sure, but I'm way too jaded on this failed rebuild to see the restart come this October. I probably see Trey's value is a bit higher than you do which is why I'd prefer moving on if some can kicking offer is put on the table.

Nice sig, btw.
 
franklin said:
Sure, but I'm way too jaded on this failed rebuild to see the restart come this October. I probably see Trey's value is a bit higher than you do which is why I'd prefer moving on if some can kicking offer is put on the table.

Nice sig, btw.
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As I've said before, I like Trey. But if pairing him with #5 gets you into the top-3 somehow? ****ing sayonara.
 
That's not going to happen. I'd look more towards Trey n 23 for Marcus Smart, or something. One of the 5-8 picks will be very good and I want better chances than 25%...
 
franklin said:
That's not going to happen. I'd look more towards Trey n 23 for Marcus Smart, or something. One of the 5-8 picks will be very good and I want better chances than 25%...
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You think him plus #23 nets a top-8 pick in this draft? Then you see his current value higher than I do.
 
franklin said:
But how large a jump? I don't see him as ever being top 5 for the position, and for that he's easily replaceable for very reasonable money (about $6mm per).

I don't really want to trade him, I like his grit, but from an asset standpoint I don't see a reason to hang on out of loyalty to draft picks or because I'm a fan of his overall attitude and demeanor.
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Maybe replaceable, but who are you going to replace him with at this point? I guess we could draft a point guard with about the same talent level as Burke, but just to swap around pieces for the sake of swapping doesn't really get us anywhere. I think Burke is a smart kid, and a hard worker. Like you said, he is not going to be top 5, but I would like to get an improvement and not move laterally if we are going to get rid of him.

There should be no loyalty when it comes to improving the team though.
 
franklin said:
That's not going to happen. I'd look more towards Trey n 23 for Marcus Smart, or something. One of the 5-8 picks will be very good and I want better chances than 25%...
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I don't love Marcus Smart, but if we get to keep our 5th pick and get him, then that would be just awesome. Vonleh and Smart would be an awesome draft. I would trade Kanter for something else too if we did that. That would pretty much restart the rebuild though. But a lineup of Smart, Burks, Hayward, Vonleh and Favors would be pretty awesome in a couple years, assuming Hayward gets his shooting stroke back. We would have a fair amount of shooting from the forward spots.
 
NUMBERICA said:
You think him plus #23 nets a top-8 pick in this draft? Then you see his current value higher than I do.
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Of course not. Taking a shot in the dark is worth more than a lower tier commodity. Outside that gambling, Trey is definitely worth 8 and 23.
 
b_line said:
Maybe replaceable, but who are you going to replace him with at this point? I guess we could draft a point guard with about the same talent level as Burke, but just to swap around pieces for the sake of swapping doesn't really get us anywhere. I think Burke is a smart kid, and a hard worker. Like you said, he is not going to be top 5, but I would like to get an improvement and not move laterally if we are going to get rid of him.

There should be no loyalty when it comes to improving the team though.
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There is always plenty avail in free agency. Mo, Devin... mid-tier guards go for cheap. The Jazz can always pick up a Trey for $2mm on a short contract, & they can always play the trump card that guarantees 10-20 talent starter minutes which guarantees they get a guy at the same price or cheaper than whatever team is offering high bench minutes on at best a 2nd round exit.
 
GVC said:
I think it's just as difficult, if not more difficult, to turn a dumb player into a smart player as it is to turn an un-athletic/un-skilled player into an athletic/skilled player. Fans tend to take the mental side of the game for granted.
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You know how low Ginobilis Basketball IQ was in his first years with the spurs ? He was attacking the rim like a crazy wild hog going after some good truffle. Pop transformed him into a special teamplayer with some streetball and Euro Skills. Now he is one of the best players at driving with the ball in his hands.

I do not think that Parker or Manu would be that great without Pop. I would say the same about Leonard. Duncan is the only player, who would be a superstar regardless of team or coach.

We have more then decent talent, bro. We just need a coach who can develop these guys into a team.
 
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