Kirelenko in Trade talks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lion's Roar]

A few misconceptions about this whole thing that I would like to get my cents in:

#1 Diaw isn't 7' tall like I read a few pages back. He's 6'8''. He started at SG/ PG in Atlanta and ate his way into the PF slot. He played C for Phoenix but that's not a + on him it's a huge - on those Phoenix teams.
#2 How can you possibly NOT consider Diaw's salary next year? It's mind bogling. You save money this year and next year when the new CBA kicks in and you're stuck with a $9M salary slot to a sub you'll simply look (insert high pitch voice) BRILLIANT.
#3 I was pretty sure AK would be gone but this trade is pretty freakin' bad.

 

[Borat]

I did not. People are talking of holding for better at trade deadline. We will not be able to dump his salary at trade deadline, we need to take what we can get for him. We dump his salary NOW, and Diaw's next year for someone reasonable piece we'll need at that point.

What I am saying to you is that we have 2 choices here if Anthony trade does indeed go through:
1) get Diaw via Charlotte, which Harris going to Charlotte.
2) get Harris without any need of Charlotte whatsoever, since Denver wants AK, not Diaw.

I am saying we must go with option #2. Do you disagree?

 

[vslice02]

Now that I've had a day to think about it, this trade does make sense for Utah both financially (obviously) and from a basketball standpoint:
1) Saving $8 million this year - over $16 million in luxury tax savings
2) With Memo out for a large portion of the season it sounds like Jefferson and Millsap will both be playing close to 35 min/game - similar to the minutes Boozer/Millsap played against Denver in the playoffs. Diaw could step in and be a very good 6th-man, a role he's more suited to because he's not a very good rebounder but w/his passing Utah could run their 2nd-unit offense through him. He's not a good 1-on-1 defender but he's a pretty good pick-and-roll defender (and so is Millsap). Diaw has also developed into a decent 3pt threat, so he can fill the Memo role on pick-and-pop as well as rolling up on the weakside in high screen-roll.

I don't think a healthy Kirilenko for Boris Diaw swap is anything close to an even trade, but given the fact you just can't count on AK for more than 60 games plus the massive contract savings, this isn't a bad move for Utah.

 

[Borat]

It's not an issue of AK vs. DIAW

If AK is definitely going to be traded - it's a matter of DIAW vs. HARRIS.

I am surprised very few people got the essence of what we are talking about here. Greg Miller has to trade AK in either scenario - that's 13 mil (or more depending what that the kick back will be from tax paying teams to non tax paying teams) savings this year. Granted next year Diaw will be overpaid by 3-4 mil as compared to the replacement we could have found on the free agent market, but still - even 10 mil savings is a huge amount and well exceeds the difference in skill between AK and Diaw.

The real point here is that we can just get Harris instead, who is not overpaid at all, and save 13 million this year ANYWAY, plus get an all star on the roster. Again, when Harris is what NJ is willing to give, and AK is what Denver wants, who needs Diaw?

 

[slc]

Which may mean there's a lot more being offered by Cats to one of the teams involved to get Harris.

 

[Borat]

Have Jazz officially signed Watson? If not it would be horrible tactic to stab Watson in back to get Harris. Also Bobcats must be giving up something good out of deal to get Harris. More to deal than being reported.

I say we get Watson too. Isn't it GM's job to give coach as much talent as possible? I really don't see a problem having Dwill, Harris, and CJ starting with Watson, Raja, and Hayward backing them up. We are actually significantly upgrading our roster with this move and Watson will still get PT behind DWill. Diaw for AK, on the other hand, while also makes sense financially, is actually a bit if a downgrade in roster. Why not make a move that makes sense financially, while actually upgrading roster by getting Harris? When not kill 2 birds with one stone?

 

[juds101]

how can this trade work the numbers dont match up if NJ get dj and melo they take on like 20 million and send out 10 and utah sends out 17.8 and takes back 10.2 none of these teams our under the cap so i just dont get how it will work out. I know if its within 25 percent but its not close will someone clarify? thanks

 

[Lion's Roar]

New Jersey is under the cap so they can absorb differences biggeer than the 25%+100K allowed in normal trades for teams over the cap.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Read this post: LINK

Also, if you're into +/- (adjusted or raw), AK blows Diaw out of the water.

I think the most misleading stat you can look at when you're evaluating a possible trade is +/-. While I think it's a very valuable tool in evaluating a players performance for the team that they actually play on, trying to take Diaw's +/- ratio while with the Bobcats, and translating that into what that means for him as a member of the Jazz is nearly impossible. So many factors change for the player once a trade happens, most notably: the type of system and players Diaw would be playing with while he's on the floor in Utah.

With all this being said, I'd hate for people to think that I'm a huge Diaw fan now. I'm just of the opinion that there is enough positives both on the court and off for this trade to make sense. Look at it this way: If a team already had Diaw at $9mil/per and AK was on the trading block, would any team with half a brain trade Diaw in favor of AK knowing that it would bring in almost double the salary and a hefty luxury tax fine? I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.

I think people are also making waaayyy too much about the fact that Diaw still has 2 years on his deal. First of all, the guy could opt out although that's not likely. But even if he doesn't, it gives Utah an expiring deal next year to play with that would be way easier to move than AK's deal has proven to be. If Diaw's not in Utah's long-term plans (which I doubt he is), I think it's extremely likely that regardless of his contract situation, you only see him for 1 year in Utah.

And as far as cutting Diaw out of the deal and going directly through NJ and getting Harris instead: I'm all for it. As somebody has already pointed out, Utah's best season with Deron came when he was playing alongside another PG with Fisher. To take it back in further, this Utah offense ran pretty smooth when Stockton was playing next to a "smallish" type of SG in Horny. Rotating DWill and Harris around in the backcourt with Raja Bell to compliment them would not only be a tough match-up for opposing defenses, it would be flat-out fun to watch.

The only reason I think it's not as simple as cutting out the Bobcats is the draft picks that we haven't heard much about. Since Denver is the team giving up the superstar in all of this, I'm willing to bet they're VERY intent on getting some future 1st round picks that can actually be of value. This is obviously where the Bobcats come in and probably why the deal would fall apart if they're not involved.

 

[juds101]

and Diaws numbers vs the Lakers suck and arnt we trying to build a team that beats LA?

Why not try trading Milsap, Hayward, Price , fez and a 1st round pick for melo and have something worked out to take on Anderson with the harpring exception, then sign Thompson

and go with a line up of dwill bell Melo Jefferson Anderson with a strong bench of Watson thompson AK Memo Elson

Pretty sure Melo would want to sign with that team thats better tehn Miami and possibly Lakers and with this we work out a extention with AK for 7-8 million for next season for the next 4-5 years

then we have our team locked in for the next 4-5 years becase Williams wont find a better team mroe equipped to win then Utah

and to have Dwill, Melo, Jefferson in there primes would be unstoppable and then have Ak to cover the back up minutes at the 3-4 to me osunds better then getting Diaw for ak

honestly look what houston got for tmac last year why cant utah be patiant with AK and maybe they can get a few 1st rounders plus a allstar talent like kevin martin and potential in jordan hlls my idea trade for melo or wiat tell feb

 

[slc]

Denver is not going to trade Melo for a bunch of role players. Denver gets Favors a possible franchise player and possible high draft picks for Melo. Plus that puts Utah even further into LT territory.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I think the most misleading stat you can look at when you're evaluating a possible trade is +/-. While I think it's a very valuable tool in evaluating a players performance for the team that they actually play on, trying to take Diaw's +/- ratio while with the Bobcats, and translating that into what that means for him as a member of the Jazz is nearly impossible. So many factors change for the player once a trade happens, most notably: the type of system and players Diaw would be playing with while he's on the floor in Utah.

But the same can be said for any type of stat (that it's hard to transfer it across teams), Jazzman12, so +/- is still among the best (or least bad) statistical measures that we have. The difficulty in predicting is especially true in Diaw's case because (1) he's moved around teams a lot, (2) he's played in vastly different systems (or non-systems), (3) he's moved positions [from PG/wing to PF/C!], and (4) he's put on weight.

Qualitatively, it's possible that Diaw would be able to be a different look at the 4 and maybe figure how not to get completely pwned at the 3 in the Jazz system. He's got to be a better dribbler than Kirilenko, so that's a start. I also can see a scenario where he stays fat, stays as an undersized tweener forward, and is an even worse-paid backup (relative to his contribution) than Memo will be.

Do we really know that Harris is a choice for the Jazz? I think not. Charlotte is probably insisting on Harris to make the deal worth it for them. They are willing to unload D.J. Augustin (and maybe a first-round pick or two, as you pointed out) to upgrade. Utah could offer Price (lol), but I think that NJ would prefer Augustin. Devin Harris would be fun on this team, but I don't think that the deal works anywhere near as well for Jazz's LT avoidance in the future, as Harris is making eight figures until 2013. It works only if Deron is gone next year.

Glad you agree that the trade is understandable fiscally.

 

[juds101]

milsap can be a 20 and 10 guy, heyward was a lotto pick, miles give them relief next year, Fez pretty much won it for last year in the 1st round, price nice back up to lawson.

Once they trade Billips, plus a 1st round pick

and we take on birdman with our exception for a 2nd rounder kicks in rebuilding mode today and a few great players to build on for next year and years to come.

Everyobody thought milsap wasa bozer replacement and hayward has potential to be a differance maker. And even if they keep miles next year, he continues to get better yeaer after year
and for the 3.7 mill he makes thats a steal

plus some contracts off the books to give them more money next year to build for the future so is milsap hayward miles fez better then favors and the goldenstate pick i think so

 

[InGameStrategy]

and Diaws numbers vs the Lakers suck and arnt we trying to build a team that beats LA? and Why not try trading Milsap, Hayward, Price , fez and a 1st round pick for melo and have something worked out to take on Anderson with the harpring exception, then sign Thompson and go with a line up of dwill bell Melo Jefferson Anderson with a strong bench of Watson thompson AK Memo Elson Pretty sure Melo would want to sign with that team thats better tehn Miami and possibly Lakers and with this we work out a extention with AK for 7-8 million for next season for the next 4-5 years then we have our team locked in for the next 4-5 years becase Williams wont find a better team mroe equipped to win then Utah and to have Dwill, Melo, Jefferson in there primes would be unstoppable and then have Ak to cover the back up minutes at the 3-4 to me osunds better then getting Diaw for ak and honestly look what houston got for tmac last year why cant utah be patiant with AK and maybe they can get a few 1st rounders plus a allstar talent like kevin martin and potential in jordan hlls my idea trade for melo or wiat tell feb

Because if Melo doesn't want to stay in Denver, he definitely doesn't want to come to Utah.

He's a NY punk; that's where he wants to go.

Utah was "patiant" with AK for years and weren't able to trade him successfully. Maybe things are easier now that he's an expiring, but he's making more money, too, and they are probably thinking that this chance might not come around again between now and february.

And if Utah is building to beat LA, the way to not do it is to trade away their only 7-footer under the age of 30 (who isn't even signed yet) as you are suggesting.

You need to check your numbers if you think that Utah can afford DW, AJ, Melo, AK (even re-signed at a lower value) and everybody else.

P.S. There's this great invention called punctuation. And a great key called "Enter" or "Return."
P.P.S. Is your nickname possibly "Catch 'n Jack"?

 

[slc]

Somebody please bring in Navajo code talkers to decipher juds101 posts.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Wow. Harris. Didn't think of Borat's angle.

Well, there are two possibilities as to why Charlotte is still involved.
1) They're sending more "assets" than Diaw.
2) The Jazz would rather have Diaw.

I can see both being true. If Augustin stays in Charlotte and they don't send out any picks, then #2 is the truth and the Jazz are retarded.

If the Jazz could get Harris, you ask Watson if he wants to sign having him understand he won't be in the rotation and then actually save a little more money (which at that point, he could probably go start for NJ). I'd have Harris come off the bench first to punish 2nd units and to hide his size deficiency against 2s.

Williams/Harris/Price
Bell/Harris/Miles/Thompson/Price
Miles/Hayward/Thompson
Millsap/Elson
Jefferson/Fesenko/Elson/Memo

I like that a lot more than $18 million for a 3rd string forward on a healthy roster.

 

[juds101]

Because if Melo doesn't want to stay in Denver, he definitely doesn't want to come to Utah.

He's a NY punk; that's where he wants to go.

Utah was "patiant" with AK for years and weren't able to trade him successfully. Maybe things are easier now that he's an expiring, but he's making more money, too, and they are probably thinking that this chance might not come around again between now and february.

And if Utah is building to beat LA, the way to not do it is to trade away their only 7-footer under the age of 30 (who isn't even signed yet) as you are suggesting.

You need to check your numbers if you think that Utah can afford DW, AJ, Melo, AK (even re-signed at a lower value) and everybody else.

P.S. There's this great invention called punctuation. And a great key called "Enter" or "Return."
P.P.S. Is your nickname possibly "Catch 'n Jack"?

Mrs. Clayton is that you? Wow, you sound like my English teacher. Ps I dont jump on here to have some idiot come and tell me how to write and tell me about punctuation!!

And why wouldnt Melo want to come play with Dwill and Big Al sounds better then New Jersey. If with that team Utah would be going deep into the playoffs every year and why not pull off what the Spurs did a few years back and have super stars and then the role players and league Min. Just for you in game

So if Utah makes it to the finals and with the new cba, why not risk it?

P.s.s. is your nickname hey douce jk

 

[Siro]

Mrs. Clayton is that you? Wow, you sound like my English teacher. Ps I dont jump on here to have some idiot come and tell me how to write and tell me about punctuation!!

And why wouldnt Melo want to come play with Dwill and Big Al sounds better then New Jersey. If with that team Utah would be going deep into the playoffs every year and why not pull off what the Spurs did a few years back and have super stars and then the role players and league Min. Just for you in game

So if Utah makes it to the finals and with the new cba, why not risk it?

P.s.s. is your nickname hey douce jk

You're right. It IS idiotic wasting time trying to understand you.

 

[C l u t c H 385]

Because if Melo doesn't want to stay in Denver, he definitely doesn't want to come to Utah.

He's a NY punk; that's where he wants to go.

Utah was "patiant" with AK for years and weren't able to trade him successfully. Maybe things are easier now that he's an expiring, but he's making more money, too, and they are probably thinking that this chance might not come around again between now and february.

And if Utah is building to beat LA, the way to not do it is to trade away their only 7-footer under the age of 30 (who isn't even signed yet) as you are suggesting.

You need to check your numbers if you think that Utah can afford DW, AJ, Melo, AK (even re-signed at a lower value) and everybody else.

P.S. There's this great invention called punctuation. And a great key called "Enter" or "Return."
P.P.S. Is your nickname possibly "Catch 'n Jack"?

What a tool.

 

[Jazz4ever]

But the same can be said for any type of stat (that it's hard to transfer it across teams), Jazzman12, so +/- is still among the best (or least bad) statistical measures that we have. The difficulty in predicting is especially true in Diaw's case because (1) he's moved around teams a lot, (2) he's played in vastly different systems (or non-systems), (3) he's moved positions [from PG/wing to PF/C!], and (4) he's put on weight.

Qualitatively, it's possible that Diaw would be able to be a different look at the 4 and maybe figure how not to get completely pwned at the 3 in the Jazz system. He's got to be a better dribbler than Kirilenko, so that's a start. I also can see a scenario where he stays fat, stays as an undersized tweener forward, and is an even worse-paid backup (relative to his contribution) than Memo will be.

Do we really know that Harris is a choice for the Jazz? I think not. Charlotte is probably insisting on Harris to make the deal worth it for them. They are willing to unload D.J. Augustin (and maybe a first-round pick or two, as you pointed out) to upgrade. Utah could offer Price (lol), but I think that NJ would prefer Augustin. Devin Harris would be fun on this team, but I don't think that the deal works anywhere near as well for Jazz's LT avoidance in the future, as Harris is making eight figures until 2013. It works only if Deron is gone next year.

Glad you agree that the trade is understandable fiscally.

You don't even have to look at +/- we can see from career PER (Diaw 13, AK 19.4) that Diaw is not even remotely the player AK is. It is a good financial move if your rebuilding. If that's the case, someone message DWill so we can start preparing to get what we can for him.