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Game Thread Oct 26, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Nuggets

Added to Calendar: 10-26-21

I said we should have been looking to move Bogey all summer. He's a good player, but still overrated IMO and we have much greater needs than another scorer. His reputation and trade value exceeds his actual production and on court value more than any of the tradeable guys. Almost all of his value comes from scoring, and that is what is most overrated by the general consensus. It's also what we have an extreme surplus of on this team. The advanced numbers have never been kind to Bogey and I have to agree with them.

I think a lot of the Ingles rumors stem from the fact that his contract is up and the Jazz might not want to bite the bullet and pay the tax. IMO, Ingles is a better player than Bogey and I don't want to lose him because we chose Bogey instead. If we can't get that two for one trade for a better player I would still like to trade Bogey for a different kind of player.
I also think they kind of were looking to move him (or someone) this offseason... there were certainly rumors. I think the trade is just difficult... I know you love Kyle Anderson but not sure that works for us and is likely not on the table. I think you are looking at like Kyle Kuzma, Thad Young, or Josh Hart type of deals... not sure what would be on the table but those don't excite me. I like those guys but we have Paschall, Gay, and Royce that give us some of what we'd want there.

Maybe if Portland decides to dump RoCo... if there was a Dame or CJ for BS trade they might need/want more shooting. I've not been impressed by RoCo at all when I watch Portland. I also think we might undersell what Bojan brings a bit. Unless we got a bonafide perimeter defender who could shoot respectably I think we'd be in trouble.
 
I also think they kind of were looking to move him (or someone) this offseason... there were certainly rumors. I think the trade is just difficult... I know you love Kyle Anderson but not sure that works for us and is likely not on the table. I think you are looking at like Kyle Kuzma, Thad Young, or Josh Hart type of deals... not sure what would be on the table but those don't excite me. I like those guys but we have Paschall, Gay, and Royce that give us some of what we'd want there.

Maybe if Portland decides to dump RoCo... if there was a Dame or CJ for BS trade they might need/want more shooting. I've not been impressed by RoCo at all when I watch Portland. I also think we might undersell what Bojan brings a bit. Unless we got a bonafide perimeter defender who could shoot respectably I think we'd be in trouble.

I think Kyle Anderson is very much on the table right now. Melton and Bane both moved ahead of him and Brooks still is yet to come back. I'm not sure if they want Bogey, but Anderson is falling out of priority there. He's also played like trash so far.

I don't think those players are super exciting exciting, but for me Bogey is not that exciting as a player either. I think Ingles and Clarkson are both better players than him and if it were up to me they'd be closing more games than Bogey. We could lose Bogey (like we did in the bubble) and I don't think we're in any more trouble than we are now. I'd still have full confidence in our team to score at an elite level.

I would be willing to mix things up and move Bogey for someone like Anderson/Hart and if we did so I think we could also bring back some young players and/or draft capital as well. If we don't want the future assets we can do a multi team trade and get another useful player that can play right now. If we had Hart and Kenrich to being with, for example, I don't think I'd be looking to move those for another scorer like Bogey. Dok for Kenrich should already be a standing offer to OKC btw.
 
Either way, regardless of what Joe's plans are I think we should have been looking to move Bogey...especially now that we have Gay, Paschall, and Butler.
I think the phone line is open but that is likely an offseason move once we know what Gay/Paschall bring. You might bring in someone through trade that then replaces Joe's minutes at guard or add another solid 3/4 at a more budget friendly price. I'm not shaking things up if I am the Jazz unless something too good to pass up comes along. Waiting until the offseason also lets you see what the market for Paschall is... he is restricted I believe so it will be our choice if we want to keep him.
 
I think Kyle Anderson is very much on the table right now. Melton and Bane both moved ahead of him and Brooks still is yet to come back. I'm not sure if they want Bogey, but Anderson is falling out of priority there. He's also played like trash so far.

I don't think those players are super exciting exciting, but for me Bogey is not that exciting as a player either. I think Ingles and Clarkson are both better players than him and if it were up to me they'd be closing more games than Bogey. We could lose Bogey (like we did in the bubble) and I don't think we're in any more trouble than we are now. I'd still have full confidence in our team to score at an elite level.

I would be willing to mix things up and move Bogey for someone like Anderson/Hart and if we did so I think we could also bring back some young players and/or draft capital as well. If we don't want the future assets we can do a multi team trade and get another useful player that can play right now. If we had Hart and Kenrich to being with, for example, I don't think I'd be looking to move those for another scorer like Bogey. Dok for Kenrich should already be a standing offer to OKC btw.
You don't have to tell me about Kenrich... I been on that bus since last trade deadline. I don't think I'd hate Hart for Bogey given the money savings and long term approach... anyone in NO could be better than they are showing as well since its been a **** show down there forever. It would likely be Hart and something (young guy or sweetner) I think NO is desperate and likely to make a bad move or three. That's still a move that can wait for the offseason though unless NO overpays.
 
Realistically we kind of got lucky that their team was heavily depleted because we did not deserve this win. We played like crap for 2.5 quarters at least. And mediocre for another quarter. So for 1/2 of a quarter we played solid ball, and since they were short their 2 best players they couldn't overcome it. But if they had been at full strength we did not play well enough to win. I hate games like this, hard to enjoy the win with multiple asterisks.
 
You don't have to tell me about Kenrich... I been on that bus since last trade deadline. I don't think I'd hate Hart for Bogey given the money savings and long term approach... anyone in NO could be better than they are showing as well since its been a **** show down there forever. It would likely be Hart and something (young guy or sweetner) I think NO is desperate and likely to make a bad move or three. That's still a move that can wait for the offseason though unless NO overpays.

I think where we defer is that you're more willing to wait and see what happens with this group, but I've already been in the mindset that something needed to happen. We have mostly the same group and I don't really see a ton of reason to believe things will be much different. I am confident that our offense will remain elite as long as we have Donovan (even if someone is out) while also having zero confidence in our defense. It's also difficult because we can't really know until the playoffs, RS won't mean much.

NOP is definitely a team we should try to exploit. Like you said they are primed to make a terrible move. I had them circled all off season because they're under immense pressure to win now, they had/have pieces we can use, and David Griffin is also in the Woj mafia like ourselves where we get nothing but positive coverage. Relationships make the league work, a close relationship with CLE helped get the Clarkson deal done IIRC. I'm still kind of iffy on Josh Hart because his jumper has been pretty bad, but I like a lot of what he does and think he would do better once he's out of a toxic environment. If he was playing for us it wouldn't surprise me if it became obvious that he's actually a better player than Royce. Team situation and environment can really affect the performance of role players.

If we could get Hart and a sweetner for Bogey I would do the trade right now.
 
I only trade him in season if something super awesome comes along. If Paschall shows he is solid and Gay ends up being good for us then you can move him in the offseason for something different. His shooting will come around... the offense is fine from him. Just needs to be better on defense (he can do it... he picked it up for the playoffs at times).

The problem with trading him is the thing we need is a different version of Bogey. Don't need guards... don't need bigs... need a good two way wing that can shoot. Rarely do you trade wing for better wing. I just think we will have some options once Gay is back and if Bojan can't/won't focus on both sides of the ball then he can sit a few extra minutes a game including crunch time. We can manage minutes well so everyone should be going balls to the walls.
Better player, maybe not. But cheaper player, yes. Roco, PJ Tucker, Josh Hart are all interesting options that give us different looks and costing us less. Bogey is a good player but his production on the court simply does not match his salary and more importantly this jazz team is currently having a surplus of scorers but not enough defense or rebounding from 1 through 4.
 
People that want to trade Bojan are forgetting what things look like when Donovan is injured. Think of Bojan as a really good player who is also Mitchell insurance. If we run into bad matchups for Bojan, we have Rudy Gay in the near future to even that out.
It was JC who was covering down when DM went down last season. The fact that Bogey had a couple of good games in DM’s absence doesn't make him the “DM insurance”. And I'm sure someone would have stepped up anyways cuz we just have so many scoring options on this team who could go off on any given night. Even Paschall had multiple 30 point games when he was with the Warriors. Lest not forget the bogey who couldn't throw into the ocean in the first half of the season. Who was the "Bogey insurance" back then?
 
It was JC who was covering down when DM went down last season. The fact that Bogey had a couple of good games in DM’s absence doesn't make him the “DM insurance”. And I'm sure someone would have stepped up anyways cuz we just have so many scoring options on this team who could go off on any given night. Even Paschall had multiple 30 point games when he was with the Warriors. Lest not forget the bogey who couldn't throw into the ocean in the first half of the season. Who was the "Bogey insurance" back then?

What is DM insurance anyways? If DM is out in the playoffs we have no chance anyways. That's not a situation we should think about too much because we're losing no matter what. It's nice to keep things going during the RS if he's out, but that's why we have Butler and all these other scorers on the team. We can ask Clarkson, Ingles, Gay, Paschall, Butler ect to pick up some scoring/ball handling responsibilities because that's who they are as players and we don't have enough touches/minutes for them in the first place. Meanwhile Royce is the only defensive non big on roster that we're sure is an NBA level player.

Bogey is a nice luxury but not one we can afford when we have massive needs that need to be addressed. If Bogey was playing for another team right now, I don't think any of us would be thinking that we need another scorer and that we should go out and get him.
 
Ingles

Ingles or Gay should start over Royce to put more size in the lineup. Conley, Mitchell and Royce together is not enough size, and his defense does not come close to making up for his inconsistent offense.
I was actually thinking about this last night. I know it would be an unpopular opinion, but I do think a lot of Gay minutes should come from Royce. Gay can obviously siphon minutes from Joe, Royce and Bojan, but I think the idea that he could take some Royce minutes probably isn't thought about much. I struggle with Royce not because of his pros/limitations, but because I believe that the dose is just too high, or that we're expecting/relying on him for things we shouldn't be. This has been a challenging discussion because it tends to be fairly polarized in terms of peoples' view on it. I think he's an important part of the team and rotation but I think we can correct the ways in which he's being overutilized. Overall his strengths are that he's an a-bit-above-average defender, he plays hard and makes hustle plays, and he hits open threes at a good clip. The fact that he's low usage has a lot of positive considering who he's playing with that, in some ways, makes him fit in reasonably in those situations. On the other hand, I believe there are some pretty important things to look at when we're comparing Gay vs. Royce in some of those minutes. Superficially, Gay would be considered a lesser three point shooter and less of a spacer. But Royce is only shooting when he's open (26.1% of shots are considered open or defender within 4-6 feet, and 63.2% of his shots are considered wide open at 6+ feet from the next defender -- 89.3% of all his shots are either open or wide open). This is looking at last year but...

Wide open threes:
Royce 39.8% and 63.2% of his threes were wide open.
Gay 39.1% and 17.5% of his threes were wide open.

Open threes:
Royce 26.1% and 5.8% of his threes were open.
Gay 39% and 21.7% of his threes were open.

The bottom line is that Royce is left wide open for threes, and those are generally the ones he takes. That's neither good nor bad in a vacuum as the defense is having to pick their poison on leaving Royce open to hit a high percentage shot or give attention elsewhere on the floor. But would our view of Gay be skewed because we look at his total percentage? What would it look like if Gay is surrounded by the same guys Royce is surrounded by and he's getting those wide open looks? More specifically, the answer is probably that Gay draws a bit more defensive attention and doesn't get as many open and wide open threes. So what that translates to is that Royce is getting open and wide open shots because the defense is crammed elsewhere. Royce shoots a higher percentage so we view him more as a spacer, but in reality he's not spacing things the way we think because he's getting those open looks. He's the opposite end of it where he's capitalizing on the space created from others (but facilitated by sagging off of him). In theory Gay would draw more attention and probably get up less open and wide open threes because the defense has to be a bit more honest, and the trade off is that the floor opens (and actually spaces) for others. Not to mention that Gay has a lot more tools to punish the defense, even while having lower usage in those lineups. Though Royce always tends to shoot a good percentage in the amalgam, there are times where the moment is big and he becomes a reluctant shooter or the nerves get the best of him.

Now pivoting to the defensive end, what does that look like? This is one area I believe people would get squeamish. We've always defaulted Royce as the man-to-man defender, even when there are numerous scenarios when that doesn't matter or becomes irrelevant (smaller quick guards, lengthy wings). Royce struggles to stay in front of anyone. Royce is good to great at a lot of things, but it's fair to say he struggles with his lateral quickness staying in front of guys (this is true of everyone else, too, but we can't ignore it here because we're having to justify his presence based on defensive acumen). Gay will be a longer defender. I don't know what his lateral quickness will look like this year, but he should be a guy who's a good team defender and can make the right rotations. He's a good secondary rim defender and rebounder when Rudy goes out to challenge (and that's one of the biggest holes in our defensive strategy right behind guys on the perimeter not staying in front of their man). If Rudy goes out to contest, the lane is open for lobs or offensive rebounds and we consistently get killed in these situations. Gay does give true size at the 4. My belief is that the biggest barriers we may have to face in a potential drop off from Royce to Gay may be our psychological perception of it. There may actually be enough other positives that would tilt the scale in Gay's favor.

tl;dr I believe that Gay may bring a number of things to the table offensively in a lower-usage role in the main unit that we may be neglecting and I believe he brings unique abilities on the defensive end when we're comparing it against those same units but with Royce. This isn't about Gay vs. Royce. Both guys can get theirs. The question and assumption is already out there about Gay possibly closing some games in place of Bojan, depending on the situation. But I don't think that discussion has been had in relation to the same idea with Royce, and I believe having that discussion would make many psychologically uneasy, but I do believe there are a few minutes to spare there where Gay is inserted into the Royce role with reasonably good success, and it should be explored without having to drastically change anyone's identities.
 
I do think the defense is looking better from our small guards... JC, Don and Mike (who was always solid when healthy). I also see us going for steals more which is a big improvement. The bench defenders in Whiteside and Paschall are much improved over Niang and Favs... although Niang is under-rated as a regular season defender. If he had Whiteside behind him maybe it would have been better.

At times last night JC was terrific defensively. It was nice to see. Now i know its possible


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I was actually thinking about this last night. I know it would be an unpopular opinion, but I do think a lot of Gay minutes should come from Royce. Gay can obviously siphon minutes from Joe, Royce and Bojan, but I think the idea that he could take some Royce minutes probably isn't thought about much. I struggle with Royce not because of his pros/limitations, but because I believe that the dose is just too high, or that we're expecting/relying on him for things we shouldn't be. This has been a challenging discussion because it tends to be fairly polarized in terms of peoples' view on it. I think he's an important part of the team and rotation but I think we can correct the ways in which he's being overutilized. Overall his strengths are that he's an a-bit-above-average defender, he plays hard and makes hustle plays, and he hits open threes at a good clip. The fact that he's low usage has a lot of positive considering who he's playing with that, in some ways, makes him fit in reasonably in those situations. On the other hand, I believe there are some pretty important things to look at when we're comparing Gay vs. Royce in some of those minutes. Superficially, Gay would be considered a lesser three point shooter and less of a spacer. But Royce is only shooting when he's open (26.1% of shots are considered open or defender within 4-6 feet, and 63.2% of his shots are considered wide open at 6+ feet from the next defender -- 89.3% of all his shots are either open or wide open). This is looking at last year but...

Wide open threes:
Royce 39.8% and 63.2% of his threes were wide open.
Gay 39.1% and 17.5% of his threes were wide open.

Open threes:
Royce 26.1% and 5.8% of his threes were open.
Gay 39% and 21.7% of his threes were open.

The bottom line is that Royce is left wide open for threes, and those are generally the ones he takes. That's neither good nor bad in a vacuum as the defense is having to pick their poison on leaving Royce open to hit a high percentage shot or give attention elsewhere on the floor. But would our view of Gay be skewed because we look at his total percentage? What would it look like if Gay is surrounded by the same guys Royce is surrounded by and he's getting those wide open looks? More specifically, the answer is probably that Gay draws a bit more defensive attention and doesn't get as many open and wide open threes. So what that translates to is that Royce is getting open and wide open shots because the defense is crammed elsewhere. Royce shoots a higher percentage so we view him more as a spacer, but in reality he's not spacing things the way we think because he's getting those open looks. He's the opposite end of it where he's capitalizing on the space created from others (but facilitated by sagging off of him). In theory Gay would draw more attention and probably get up less open and wide open threes because the defense has to be a bit more honest, and the trade off is that the floor opens (and actually spaces) for others. Not to mention that Gay has a lot more tools to punish the defense, even while having lower usage in those lineups. Though Royce always tends to shoot a good percentage in the amalgam, there are times where the moment is big and he becomes a reluctant shooter or the nerves get the best of him.

Now pivoting to the defensive end, what does that look like? This is one area I believe people would get squeamish. We've always defaulted Royce as the man-to-man defender, even when there are numerous scenarios when that doesn't matter or becomes irrelevant (smaller quick guards, lengthy wings). Royce struggles to stay in front of anyone. Royce is good to great at a lot of things, but it's fair to say he struggles with his lateral quickness staying in front of guys (this is true of everyone else, too, but we can't ignore it here because we're having to justify his presence based on defensive acumen). Gay will be a longer defender. I don't know what his lateral quickness will look like this year, but he should be a guy who's a good team defender and can make the right rotations. He's a good secondary rim defender and rebounder when Rudy goes out to challenge (and that's one of the biggest holes in our defensive strategy right behind guys on the perimeter not staying in front of their man). If Rudy goes out to contest, the lane is open for lobs or offensive rebounds and we consistently get killed in these situations. Gay does give true size at the 4. My belief is that the biggest barriers we may have to face in a potential drop off from Royce to Gay may be our psychological perception of it. There may actually be enough other positives that would tilt the scale in Gay's favor.

tl;dr I believe that Gay may bring a number of things to the table offensively in a lower-usage role in the main unit that we may be neglecting and I believe he brings unique abilities on the defensive end when we're comparing it against those same units but with Royce. This isn't about Gay vs. Royce. Both guys can get theirs. The question and assumption is already out there about Gay possibly closing some games in place of Bojan, depending on the situation. But I don't think that discussion has been had in relation to the same idea with Royce, and I believe having that discussion would make many psychologically uneasy, but I do believe there are a few minutes to spare there where Gay is inserted into the Royce role with reasonably good success, and it should be explored without having to drastically change anyone's identities.

Im souring on Royce quite a bit this year so far. Mostly cause his shot has been really off.

One thing you can always say about royce that is positive is that he gives good effort nightly. Im starting to feel like that isnt enough anymore by itself.


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I was actually thinking about this last night. I know it would be an unpopular opinion, but I do think a lot of Gay minutes should come from Royce. Gay can obviously siphon minutes from Joe, Royce and Bojan, but I think the idea that he could take some Royce minutes probably isn't thought about much. I struggle with Royce not because of his pros/limitations, but because I believe that the dose is just too high, or that we're expecting/relying on him for things we shouldn't be. This has been a challenging discussion because it tends to be fairly polarized in terms of peoples' view on it. I think he's an important part of the team and rotation but I think we can correct the ways in which he's being overutilized. Overall his strengths are that he's an a-bit-above-average defender, he plays hard and makes hustle plays, and he hits open threes at a good clip. The fact that he's low usage has a lot of positive considering who he's playing with that, in some ways, makes him fit in reasonably in those situations. On the other hand, I believe there are some pretty important things to look at when we're comparing Gay vs. Royce in some of those minutes. Superficially, Gay would be considered a lesser three point shooter and less of a spacer. But Royce is only shooting when he's open (26.1% of shots are considered open or defender within 4-6 feet, and 63.2% of his shots are considered wide open at 6+ feet from the next defender -- 89.3% of all his shots are either open or wide open). This is looking at last year but...

Wide open threes:
Royce 39.8% and 63.2% of his threes were wide open.
Gay 39.1% and 17.5% of his threes were wide open.

Open threes:
Royce 26.1% and 5.8% of his threes were open.
Gay 39% and 21.7% of his threes were open.

The bottom line is that Royce is left wide open for threes, and those are generally the ones he takes. That's neither good nor bad in a vacuum as the defense is having to pick their poison on leaving Royce open to hit a high percentage shot or give attention elsewhere on the floor. But would our view of Gay be skewed because we look at his total percentage? What would it look like if Gay is surrounded by the same guys Royce is surrounded by and he's getting those wide open looks? More specifically, the answer is probably that Gay draws a bit more defensive attention and doesn't get as many open and wide open threes. So what that translates to is that Royce is getting open and wide open shots because the defense is crammed elsewhere. Royce shoots a higher percentage so we view him more as a spacer, but in reality he's not spacing things the way we think because he's getting those open looks. He's the opposite end of it where he's capitalizing on the space created from others (but facilitated by sagging off of him). In theory Gay would draw more attention and probably get up less open and wide open threes because the defense has to be a bit more honest, and the trade off is that the floor opens (and actually spaces) for others. Not to mention that Gay has a lot more tools to punish the defense, even while having lower usage in those lineups. Though Royce always tends to shoot a good percentage in the amalgam, there are times where the moment is big and he becomes a reluctant shooter or the nerves get the best of him.

Now pivoting to the defensive end, what does that look like? This is one area I believe people would get squeamish. We've always defaulted Royce as the man-to-man defender, even when there are numerous scenarios when that doesn't matter or becomes irrelevant (smaller quick guards, lengthy wings). Royce struggles to stay in front of anyone. Royce is good to great at a lot of things, but it's fair to say he struggles with his lateral quickness staying in front of guys (this is true of everyone else, too, but we can't ignore it here because we're having to justify his presence based on defensive acumen). Gay will be a longer defender. I don't know what his lateral quickness will look like this year, but he should be a guy who's a good team defender and can make the right rotations. He's a good secondary rim defender and rebounder when Rudy goes out to challenge (and that's one of the biggest holes in our defensive strategy right behind guys on the perimeter not staying in front of their man). If Rudy goes out to contest, the lane is open for lobs or offensive rebounds and we consistently get killed in these situations. Gay does give true size at the 4. My belief is that the biggest barriers we may have to face in a potential drop off from Royce to Gay may be our psychological perception of it. There may actually be enough other positives that would tilt the scale in Gay's favor.

tl;dr I believe that Gay may bring a number of things to the table offensively in a lower-usage role in the main unit that we may be neglecting and I believe he brings unique abilities on the defensive end when we're comparing it against those same units but with Royce. This isn't about Gay vs. Royce. Both guys can get theirs. The question and assumption is already out there about Gay possibly closing some games in place of Bojan, depending on the situation. But I don't think that discussion has been had in relation to the same idea with Royce, and I believe having that discussion would make many psychologically uneasy, but I do believe there are a few minutes to spare there where Gay is inserted into the Royce role with reasonably good success, and it should be explored without having to drastically change anyone's identities.

I don't think Rudy Gay shifting down to a low usage role will necessarily be bad for him (he was a bad high usage guy last year), but I reject the notion that it's not actually a dramatic change for him.. It could be the change that keeps his career going, but it's still a huge change for him nonetheless. Rudy Gay was the second highest usage guy on the Spurs last year. They depended on him to get his own shot and that's a role he's had his entire career. It's way different to play the Royce O'Neale role on offense where you're a <10% usage player who never touches the ball. I understand the thought. Gay is better than Royce at everything that Royce does on offense, but it doesn't always work that way in practice. Gay is still going to play his game to some degree. That's not because he's selfish, it's just the way he plays. It doesn't mesh well the other players who will be in that main lineup. Even when we had Ingles playing instead of Royce, who doesn't shoot a lot, those lineups didn't work well because there was an overload of ball handlers.

I think the offense would sort itself out, the bigger question is on defense. I don't think you're too far off in your analysis. I've been championing the idea that on ball defense is highly overrated for since forever. No one can really stay in front of anyone to begin with, and if you are the best defender teams will just work to get their preferred switch anyways. Perimeter defense matters, but your worse defender will picked on. Not the best. Unfortunately for the Jazz everyone except for Rudy is very easily picked on by an above average offensive player. At the end of the day defenses succeed or fail in the playoffs on how they play as a unit --help, recover, cover space, rebound ect. All that good stuff.

In theory that's where Gay can help us. I wouldn't say I'm super skeptical of his defensive ability, but I'm not at a point where I can comfortably assume he's really going to help us there. He's 35 and if you listen at the general consensus from Spurs fans he wasn't a good defender. To be fair, his defensive contributions come in a more subtle way and his shortcomings are the most visible (on ball defense). It wouldn't surprise me if most people underrated him defensively for those reason, but I also think we underrate Royce for these reasons. Royce does guard the toughest assignment, but I think the bulk of his defensive value comes in other ways. The numbers would suggest that Gay is as good as ever on defense...but if we put a lot of stock in those types of numbers (which I do) Bogey sticks out like a sore thumb. Bogey is the player whose numbers do not reflect the reputation he has.

For me, I see it just as much of a Royce vs Bogey debate as a Royce vs Gay debate. If Gay proves to be a really solid and valuable defender for us, what do we need more....scoring/shooting or defense/rebounding? To me that answer is still more defense/rebounding. If Gay is an equal or even more valuable defender than Royce I think we're still getting absolutely cooked on defense. I can't envision a scenario where Gay is so much better than Royce that we get away with Conley-Mitchelll-Bogey defensive trio. I think it's fair to question how much value Royce is actually bringing and how that compares to Gay, but I also ask the same questions about Bogey. When he's playing with Mike and Donovan, he's just an average usage player. There isn't room for him to be more than that. In the playoffs where Mitchell takes over, Bogey is even less than that. He's an 18% usage player in the playoffs when sharing the court with Mitchell.

Now, you could make the argument that we should be getting Bogey involved more and Mitchell shouldn't have to do so much in the playoffs...but Mitchell does his thing and it really works. I also don't think Bogey is particularly great against switches. I still cringe when he gets a postup and in the playoffs when defense is more aggressively concerns about him giving the ball away are even greater. This isn't to say he doesn't provide value. He is a great shooter and replacing him with Royce or Gay will have his downsides. But having him on defense instead of those two also presents major downsides.
 
Agreed. About as pessimistic of a gamethread for a game that we won as i have seen in long time


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I know it - and get used to it.

I told everyone last year during the regular season to enjoy it while it lasts. It's very, very rare your team exceeds everyone's expectations - especially if your team is good to begin with. No one serious had The Jazz finishing with best overall record.

Now folks are gonna expect it - so the joy associated with winning become less and less.
 
I was actually thinking about this last night. I know it would be an unpopular opinion, but I do think a lot of Gay minutes should come from Royce. Gay can obviously siphon minutes from Joe, Royce and Bojan, but I think the idea that he could take some Royce minutes probably isn't thought about much. I struggle with Royce not because of his pros/limitations, but because I believe that the dose is just too high, or that we're expecting/relying on him for things we shouldn't be. This has been a challenging discussion because it tends to be fairly polarized in terms of peoples' view on it. I think he's an important part of the team and rotation but I think we can correct the ways in which he's being overutilized. Overall his strengths are that he's an a-bit-above-average defender, he plays hard and makes hustle plays, and he hits open threes at a good clip. The fact that he's low usage has a lot of positive considering who he's playing with that, in some ways, makes him fit in reasonably in those situations. On the other hand, I believe there are some pretty important things to look at when we're comparing Gay vs. Royce in some of those minutes. Superficially, Gay would be considered a lesser three point shooter and less of a spacer. But Royce is only shooting when he's open (26.1% of shots are considered open or defender within 4-6 feet, and 63.2% of his shots are considered wide open at 6+ feet from the next defender -- 89.3% of all his shots are either open or wide open). This is looking at last year but...

Wide open threes:
Royce 39.8% and 63.2% of his threes were wide open.
Gay 39.1% and 17.5% of his threes were wide open.

Open threes:
Royce 26.1% and 5.8% of his threes were open.
Gay 39% and 21.7% of his threes were open.

The bottom line is that Royce is left wide open for threes, and those are generally the ones he takes. That's neither good nor bad in a vacuum as the defense is having to pick their poison on leaving Royce open to hit a high percentage shot or give attention elsewhere on the floor. But would our view of Gay be skewed because we look at his total percentage? What would it look like if Gay is surrounded by the same guys Royce is surrounded by and he's getting those wide open looks? More specifically, the answer is probably that Gay draws a bit more defensive attention and doesn't get as many open and wide open threes. So what that translates to is that Royce is getting open and wide open shots because the defense is crammed elsewhere. Royce shoots a higher percentage so we view him more as a spacer, but in reality he's not spacing things the way we think because he's getting those open looks. He's the opposite end of it where he's capitalizing on the space created from others (but facilitated by sagging off of him). In theory Gay would draw more attention and probably get up less open and wide open threes because the defense has to be a bit more honest, and the trade off is that the floor opens (and actually spaces) for others. Not to mention that Gay has a lot more tools to punish the defense, even while having lower usage in those lineups. Though Royce always tends to shoot a good percentage in the amalgam, there are times where the moment is big and he becomes a reluctant shooter or the nerves get the best of him.

Now pivoting to the defensive end, what does that look like? This is one area I believe people would get squeamish. We've always defaulted Royce as the man-to-man defender, even when there are numerous scenarios when that doesn't matter or becomes irrelevant (smaller quick guards, lengthy wings). Royce struggles to stay in front of anyone. Royce is good to great at a lot of things, but it's fair to say he struggles with his lateral quickness staying in front of guys (this is true of everyone else, too, but we can't ignore it here because we're having to justify his presence based on defensive acumen). Gay will be a longer defender. I don't know what his lateral quickness will look like this year, but he should be a guy who's a good team defender and can make the right rotations. He's a good secondary rim defender and rebounder when Rudy goes out to challenge (and that's one of the biggest holes in our defensive strategy right behind guys on the perimeter not staying in front of their man). If Rudy goes out to contest, the lane is open for lobs or offensive rebounds and we consistently get killed in these situations. Gay does give true size at the 4. My belief is that the biggest barriers we may have to face in a potential drop off from Royce to Gay may be our psychological perception of it. There may actually be enough other positives that would tilt the scale in Gay's favor.

tl;dr I believe that Gay may bring a number of things to the table offensively in a lower-usage role in the main unit that we may be neglecting and I believe he brings unique abilities on the defensive end when we're comparing it against those same units but with Royce. This isn't about Gay vs. Royce. Both guys can get theirs. The question and assumption is already out there about Gay possibly closing some games in place of Bojan, depending on the situation. But I don't think that discussion has been had in relation to the same idea with Royce, and I believe having that discussion would make many psychologically uneasy, but I do believe there are a few minutes to spare there where Gay is inserted into the Royce role with reasonably good success, and it should be explored without having to drastically change anyone's identities.
This is a whole lot of words, and seems like you're trying to convince yourself. Gay for Royce probably works fine, but Royce is far from our problems that need to be solved.

Royce fits in well with any of our lineups because of his ability to defend multiple positions, rebound, and play efficient offense with very limited usage.
 
I don't think Rudy Gay shifting down to a low usage role will necessarily be bad for him (he was a bad high usage guy last year), but I reject the notion that it's not actually a dramatic change for him.. It could be the change that keeps his career going, but it's still a huge change for him nonetheless. Rudy Gay was the second highest usage guy on the Spurs last year. They depended on him to get his own shot and that's a role he's had his entire career. It's way different to play the Royce O'Neale role on offense where you're a <10% usage player who never touches the ball. I understand the thought. Gay is better than Royce at everything that Royce does on offense, but it doesn't always work that way in practice. Gay is still going to play his game to some degree. That's not because he's selfish, it's just the way he plays. It doesn't mesh well the other players who will be in that main lineup. Even when we had Ingles playing instead of Royce, who doesn't shoot a lot, those lineups didn't work well because there was an overload of ball handlers.

I think the offense would sort itself out, the bigger question is on defense. I don't think you're too far off in your analysis. I've been championing the idea that on ball defense is highly overrated for since forever. No one can really stay in front of anyone to begin with, and if you are the best defender teams will just work to get their preferred switch anyways. Perimeter defense matters, but your worse defender will picked on. Not the best. Unfortunately for the Jazz everyone except for Rudy is very easily picked on by an above average offensive player. At the end of the day defenses succeed or fail in the playoffs on how they play as a unit --help, recover, cover space, rebound ect. All that good stuff.

In theory that's where Gay can help us. I wouldn't say I'm super skeptical of his defensive ability, but I'm not at a point where I can comfortably assume he's really going to help us there. He's 35 and if you listen at the general consensus from Spurs fans he wasn't a good defender. To be fair, his defensive contributions come in a more subtle way and his shortcomings are the most visible (on ball defense). It wouldn't surprise me if most people underrated him defensively for those reason, but I also think we underrate Royce for these reasons. Royce does guard the toughest assignment, but I think the bulk of his defensive value comes in other ways. The numbers would suggest that Gay is as good as ever on defense...but if we put a lot of stock in those types of numbers (which I do) Bogey sticks out like a sore thumb. Bogey is the player whose numbers do not reflect the reputation he has.

For me, I see it just as much of a Royce vs Bogey debate as a Royce vs Gay debate. If Gay proves to be a really solid and valuable defender for us, what do we need more....scoring/shooting or defense/rebounding? To me that answer is still more defense/rebounding. If Gay is an equal or even more valuable defender than Royce I think we're still getting absolutely cooked on defense. I can't envision a scenario where Gay is so much better than Royce that we get away with Conley-Mitchelll-Bogey defensive trio. I think it's fair to question how much value Royce is actually bringing and how that compares to Gay, but I also ask the same questions about Bogey. When he's playing with Mike and Donovan, he's just an average usage player. There isn't room for him to be more than that. In the playoffs where Mitchell takes over, Bogey is even less than that. He's an 18% usage player in the playoffs when sharing the court with Mitchell.

Now, you could make the argument that we should be getting Bogey involved more and Mitchell shouldn't have to do so much in the playoffs...but Mitchell does his thing and it really works. I also don't think Bogey is particularly great against switches. I still cringe when he gets a postup and in the playoffs when defense is more aggressively concerns about him giving the ball away are even greater. This isn't to say he doesn't provide value. He is a great shooter and replacing him with Royce or Gay will have his downsides. But having him on defense instead of those two also presents major downsides.
I would respond to this with two things in stating that we're not talking about a large sum of minutes here, and Gay having to transition to a different role isn't meaning that he's now playing 15 minutes a night with the main unit. I'm talking more about maybe 5 minutes a night as a ceiling, if that. The second is on the question of the defensive issues. I believe the largest difference you would have would come down to how we could close defensive possessions in crunch time. We've been one of the worse rebounding teams in the crunch and the whole idea of Gay is that you have someone can can rotate down low when Rudy contests. Between him being a bigger body to protect the rim and being able to better secure rebounds like a forward, this would go a long way in correcting a gigantic flaw in our system that tends to only manifest in the clutch and is virtually absent the rest of the game and does not show up in any composite numbers. The second part of it goes back to the offensive end where our struggles tend to get contagious and when other teams are going on a run we tighten up. I don't see Royce hitting shots in those scenarios, and feel like Gay's versatility gives us a few more tools to combat that, even if he's not the guy you're throwing the ball to.
 
This is a whole lot of words, and seems like you're trying to convince yourself. Gay for Royce probably works fine, but Royce is far from our problems that need to be solved.

Royce fits in well with any of our lineups because of his ability to defend multiple positions, rebound, and play efficient offense with very limited usage.
It's not an argument for that scenario by itself, but more that I believe we're likely to limit ourselves because we will focus in on one or two problems and won't be open to additional ones because of the explanation given in your last sentence.
 
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