Racism and privilege

[One Brow]

And in that Utopian equality of poverty that many socialists and Marxists aspire to being white doesn't carry the same weight that it does in the mainstream society. I suppose that's justice, eh?

Even in that poverty, the white kids get treated better by store owners, by police, by teachers, etc. A few kids reacted to the separation they see enforced on them by society by retaliating against those they see benefiting. From a position of privilege, you don't see the benefits, just the reaction. It's not any specific fault of yours other than being a normal human being.

 

[♪alt13]

What do you think I am trying to exclude?

: racial prejudice or discrimination

This one^

BY adding the qualifier (power structure) onebrow is trying to exclude forms of racism that he would choose to ignore.

One Brow
1) The use of "bum" shows classist thinking. Very few homeless are so by choice.
2) Even while homeless, the white homeless are treated better than the black homeless, and still get a small measure of privilege in that regard.

Don't dodge.

Is this homeless person acting in a racists way or not? Does his powerlessness in our society exclude him from being racist no matter how egregious his actions become?

 

[♪alt13]

I think both OneBrow and Vinyl are acting racist(with good intentions) by their own definition.

You are making victims out of minorities. The line between victimization and empowerment is very thin. If you, by your words and actions, fall on the right side of that line you can do great things for peoples lives. If you however fall on the wrong side of that line you can do people a great injustice.

MLK jr. Was great not because his message was "The white man is keeping you down" He was great because his message was " It doesn't have to be this way. You can stand up to the white man."

I think we should all work to remove injustice and inequality but it has to be done through empowerment. Nothing either of you have said is empowering. You make it sound that all minorities are doomed to live a life that isn't as fulfilling as that of a white man. That is victimization and only contributes to the cycle of poverty, dissatisfaction, and inequality in America today.

 

[One Brow]

: racial prejudice or discrimination

This one^

BY adding the qualifier (power structure) onebrow is trying to exclude forms of racism that he would choose to ignore.

You have confused exclusion with differentiating. You can benefit from and reinforce the power differentials (perform racist acts) without any personal animus (bigotry). I have no need to ignore bigotry. I also don't see any reason to confuse a lack of bigotry with a lack of racist behavior. Your continued conflation of these two concepts is quite beneficial to your ability not to recognize the notion of privilege in general, and your own in particular.

Don't dodge.

Is this homeless person acting in a racists way or not? Does his powerlessness in our society exclude him from being racist no matter how egregious his actions become?

I don't call individuals racist, at least not in a way that suggest there are other individuals who are not racist. Is the white homeless person in question bigoted? Yes.

 

[One Brow]

I think both OneBrow and Vinyl are acting racist(with good intentions) by their own definition.

You are making victims out of minorities. The line between victimization and empowerment is very thin.

That's not even the first time I've read that tired justification today. I don't need to "make" victims. The victims exist, and continue to be victimized.

MLK jr. Was great not because his message was "The white man is keeping you down" He was great because his message was " It doesn't have to be this way. You can stand up to the white man."

Thank you for whitesplaining King to me. After all, I must obviously see him as a prophet of some sort, whose every word (as interpreted by you) should be followed without question.

The word you are looking for is "appropriation".

I think we should all work to remove injustice and inequality but it has to be done through empowerment. Nothing either of you have said is empowering. You make it sound that all minorities are doomed to live a life that isn't as fulfilling as that of a white man. That is victimization and only contributes to the cycle of poverty, dissatisfaction, and inequality in America today.

You make it sound like you can't tell there is a color in between black and white, when in fact there is a multidimensional layout. It makes sense that your depiction of society would metaphorically mirror its divisions.

 

[franklin]

Is this racist privilege?

 

[LogGrad98]

Is this racist privilege?

I think this belongs in the inappropriate thread.
















It isn't but it belongs there.

 

[VINYLONE]

: racial prejudice or discrimination

This one^

I don't understand. Racism absolutely involves racial prejudice and discrimination. But I would argue that the racial prejudice comes as a result of the Racism in a form of rationalization.

 

[VINYLONE]

I think both OneBrow and Vinyl are acting racist(with good intentions) by their own definition.

You are making victims out of minorities. The line between victimization and empowerment is very thin. If you, by your words and actions, fall on the right side of that line you can do great things for peoples lives. If you however fall on the wrong side of that line you can do people a great injustice.

MLK jr. Was great not because his message was "The white man is keeping you down" He was great because his message was " It doesn't have to be this way. You can stand up to the white man."

I think we should all work to remove injustice and inequality but it has to be done through empowerment. Nothing either of you have said is empowering. You make it sound that all minorities are doomed to live a life that isn't as fulfilling as that of a white man. That is victimization and only contributes to the cycle of poverty, dissatisfaction, and inequality in America today.

I'm acting like a racist? That's quite a bold statement. Who or what am I being racist against?

Maybe I am not being clear here. My posts, thus far, have just been in regards to defined terms. Nothing more, nothing less. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that there are some minorities that function as constant victims in this world. I do think it's a small majority. I think most folks regardless of race function in a positive manner in their communities. I will say, though, that minorities are more likely to experience issues stemming from race. To state otherwise would be untruthful.

It reminds me of this article I read a few years back:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html

It's the reality. Those folks in that article have flown right, have made all the right decisions in life, have educated themselves but their skin color is still an impediment. Again, it's the reality.

 

[VINYLONE]

Is this racist privilege?

No. It's just a bad joke. Though some might find it funny.

 

[One Brow]

Is this racist privilege?

Just poor taste.

 

[♪alt13]

I don't understand. Racism absolutely involves racial prejudice and discrimination. But I would argue that the racial prejudice comes as a result of the Racism in a form of rationalization.

Yes. Again, there is a difference between racism (a power structure) and bigotry.

...
A racist doesn't necessarily need a power structure supporting them to be a racist. You know this it just doesn't fit your current argument very well.
...

Completely disagree. I think I use "racism" the same way OB uses it...as a sociological word that connotes a power structure...

The problem isn't the definition you choose to use the problem is the definition you are trying to exclude...

What do you think I am trying to exclude?

My usage is the one in the professional mainstream, not yours.

: racial prejudice or discrimination
This one^
BY adding the qualifier (power structure) onebrow is trying to exclude forms of racism that he would choose to ignore.

I don't understand. Racism absolutely involves racial prejudice and discrimination. But I would argue that the racial prejudice comes as a result of the Racism in a form of rationalization.

Around and around we go.

 

[♪alt13]

That's not even the first time I've read that tired justification today. I don't need to "make" victims. The victims exist, and continue to be victimized.

You are attacking white people for not facing the same hardships. You want people to feel guilty just for being white. You have no call to action. You are making victims. You make a victim out of a child when you make it sound like his/her future is hopeless.

Thank you for whitesplaining King to me. After all, I must obviously see him as a prophet of some sort, whose every word (as interpreted by you) should be followed without question.

I see MLK jr. as one of the greatest figures in world history(I really don't give a **** how you see him) I don't have to treat him as a messiah and worship his word to appreciate his example. When talking about race why is bringing up MLK jr. not appropriate.

The word you are looking for is "appropriation".

cool bro.

You make it sound like you can't tell there is a color in between black and white, when in fact there is a multidimensional layout. It makes sense that your depiction of society would metaphorically mirror its divisions.
You ignore everything I have said in regards to inequality and injustice in America. You would rather blame me than work with me to make things better. Have fun with that

.

 

[♪alt13]

I'm acting like a racist? That's quite a bold statement. Who or what am I being racist against?

Maybe I am not being clear here. My posts, thus far, have just been in regards to defined terms. Nothing more, nothing less. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that there are some minorities that function as constant victims in this world. I do think it's a small majority. I think most folks regardless of race function in a positive manner in their communities. I will say, though, that minorities are more likely to experience issues stemming from race. To state otherwise would be untruthful.

It reminds me of this article I read a few years back:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html

It's the reality. Those folks in that article have flown right, have made all the right decisions in life, have educated themselves but their skin color is still an impediment. Again, it's the reality.

I agree with every word you wrote. I apologize if I lumped you in with one Brow, unfairly. Liberal establishment racism is what I was referring to. This type of racism replaces the feeling of disgust or hatred that one would find in good old fashioned racism and replaces it with pity. The feeling of superiority remains and differential treatment persists.

 

[moevillini]

somehow these discussions make me think of Joni Mitchell's song "The Circle Game" - if you haven't heard it in a while you should give it a listen.

And skimming through the last couple pages of posts, I think I agree most closely with what viny's saying

 

[One Brow]

Around and around we go.

Perhaps if we both agreed to use the terms in the same way they are used by the professionals who study the issue, that would stop.

 

[One Brow]

You are attacking white people for not facing the same hardships. You want people to feel guilty just for being white. You have no call to action. You are making victims. You make a victim out of a child when you make it sound like his/her future is hopeless.

I'm urging all people to recognize that they are products of their culture, that they share in the cognitive shortcuts and assumptions passed onto them by the culture, and that simply ignoring/denying the existence of these shortcuts means they perpetuate the shortcuts, even if they do not intend to do so. Intent is not relevant, behavior is. In particular, guilt is meaningless. inless it motivates change.

I defy you to pull out one sentece from the past 17 pages where I attacked, or even insulted, any other poster.

You are the one who equates the unequal playing field with "hopeless". There will always be indivuiduals who can clear the bar, even when it is set higher for them. Discrimintion against blacks in employment, STEM disciplines, etc. doesn't mean no blacks are employed nor that none work it STEM. It means that some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities. Denying this sort of victimization does not make it go away.

I see MLK jr. as one of the greatest figures in world history(I really don't give a **** how you see him) I don't have to treat him as a messiah and worship his word to appreciate his example. When talking about race why is bringing up MLK jr. not appropriate.

My recommendation is that when you bring King up, you need to keep in mind that you have a much smaller share in the experiences that informed King than many others have, and so your understanding of King is lacking in that regard. I have no problem with you saying what King inspires in you. However, you were trying to tell me what King meant as a corrective to my view. There are a few posters in here that seem knowledgeable enough that I would take such a corrective seriously. You're not one of them. You obviously lack the experiences and just as obviously have not attempted any serious study of the issue.

You ignore everything I have said in regards to inequality and injustice in America. You would rather blame me than work with me to make things better. Have fun with that

I have not ignored what you say, but I take it as seriously as I do the notion that the earth is flat and supported on the back of a turtle. Before I can work with you to make things better, you have to be able to see what's wrong. Why should I work with you on solutions when you don't even see the real problem?

 

[One Brow]

I agree with every word you wrote. I apologize if I lumped you in with one Brow, unfairly.

It's odd how you can agree with VinylOne and disagree with me, when we are basically saying the same thing, perhaps with a slightly different emphasis.

 

[Stoked]

It's odd how you can agree with VinylOne and disagree with me, when we are basically saying the same thing, perhaps with a slightly different emphasis.

Then perhaps you should compare the differences in your approach and language use.

 

[babe]

OB says "Intent is not relevant, Behavior is".

While I agree that government is properly empowered to regulate "behavior" or actions that impose some impediment on the rights and liberties of citizens, if what OB says is true we don't actually need the word "racism" in specifying which behaviors are injurious to others in either their person, their possessions, or their rights.

If we go on prattling about "racism" and attaching to that word the intent to treat some class of persons injuriously, we can hardly do so without applying that label to another class of persons and attaching a hate label, or maybe even criminalizing them for being what they are. . . . based on their intentions.

I couldn't think of a more backward way of looking at the issue. Just trying to understand the "thinking" that goes into that. . . . .