This season will vindicate Ty Corbin

[Nate505]

The original premise of this thread is great

 

[Zulu]

Hate to break it to you but we really don't know what player Gobert was last season.



Of course that was because he was languishing behind washed-up vets for some ****-all only knows why reason, but I digress.

Except as soon as he got time on his National team for the World Cup he started ballin'!!!

 

[Nate505]

Unless you used to be someone else, you haven't been around long enough to understand Franklin. He added a much needed contrary element to the groupthink on the board, and almost always supported his arguments with insightful information. Instead of engaging him intellectually, the vast majority of people on the board threw **** around like ****ing apes, and effectively drove him away. He pops up now and then to troll a little now, probably because there's no one left willing to have an intelligent, nuanced discussion on the Jazz board.

That's fine. And in this case he was wrong. Dead wrong. As wrong as one can possibly be wrong. And the idea that he was done sort of innocent guy who didn't dish out his fair share of antagonism is comical.

 

[gregbroncs]

That's fine. And in this case he was wrong. Dead wrong. As wrong as one can possibly be wrong. And the idea that he was done sort of innocent guy who didn't dish out his fair share of antagonism is comical.

Exactly. I don't remember a franklin that was not a troll. He dishes out more hate toward posters that disagree with him that he receives yet some good posters on here fail to see it. He has not brought a new argument to the Corbin debate in years. Just continually trying to troll the same subject to prove he was right. Can't admit he was wrong, so he'll continue to troll the subject to death.
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When is the last time you read a Franklin post in the Jazz forum that was not about Corbin? If they are there I haven't seen them or don't remember them. Corbin has been gone almost a year and he still brings him up and bumps this thread continually.

 

[zman1527]

I think people like GVC and Numberica (not so much) who defend Franklin have it wrong. He did at first try to make a cogent argument in defense of Corbin, but the more it became evident he was wrong, the more staunchly he defended it. He just couldn't bring himself to admit he was wrong, and despite the overwhelming evidence now, he still won't.

I probably am one of the foremost Corbin haters on the board. Not because I disliked the guy but because of the pathetic way the Jazz played while he was the coach (that's not to say there weren't one after another stupid decisions on his part). The thing that is so refreshing about Quin is his enthusiasm and passion, but it's obvious as well that this guy knows what he is doing.

I would love to hear franklin call in to a radio show with knowledgeable hosts to discuss his current view that QS is only a +1.5 to Ty. I really would. Most folks know that when they can barely see the top of the hole and the dirt keeps falling back in on them to stop digging that hole.

 

[franklin]

"Team not intentionally designed to fail"


Yet we have what, 7 rookies on roster?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Youngest roster in the NBA, having played the fewest games together in the NBA, and having the best defense in the NBA for 6 weeks now (via Locke). With Hood being a complete non-factor for one reason or another for most of the season, Burks sitting out most of the season, Trey Burke being mostly sun-baked dog ****, Exum playing alarmingly timid for the vast majority of the season, Enes Kanter being a ****ing baby, and having a bunch of D-Leaguers/scrubs fill out the roster on top of all of that. Richard Jefferson and Marvin Williams aren't world-beaters, but as supporting cast players, they're better than Joe Ingles, Elijah Millsap, and the revolving cast of non-NBA players that have spent time in the rotation because they've been short two or three NBA players for pretty much the entire season. What a ridiculous statement.

Utter bull ****! You two arguing that starting a roster with a rookie point guard in a historically ****ty draft class and JLIII, Tinsley, & Garrett, and a backup big man rotation behind an unproven Enes and patently inconsistent Favors being Jeremy Evans and Marvin Williams at the 4, and a raw as they come rookie and Andris Biedrins at the 5, with no stretch four whatsoever, and chucking, no defense Burks as the 6th man off the bench wasn't one of the worst constructed teams of all time, but this one was?

Talk about grasping at straws to support your pov. A little more intellectual honesty is expected of you two.

Add me to the list. I know the title of the thread and I know the point he tried to make. Whether it's a real opinion or a misadventure in devil's advocacy, the point he tried to argue (and is trying to continue to argue) is ****ing burning wreckage. Group-think is stupid, but to suggest that there's somehow a laurel to be granted for contrarianism strictly because it's contrarianism is half-baked and equally stupid.

I became a fan when the numbers proved all the criticisms about Ty Corbin to be nothing more than fan angst from half-witted mid-20's men who never grew out of teenage know-it-all syndrome.

I don't see any reason the rest of you continue ignoring what the numbers have shown.

That's fine. And in this case he was wrong. Dead wrong. As wrong as one can possibly be wrong. And the idea that he was done sort of innocent guy who didn't dish out his fair share of antagonism is comical.

That's nice. I've never seen you be right about anything. In fact, I've never seen you post anything besides jumping from one anti-coaching tirade to the next. Hell, you've even been on Quin's *** already for not doing what Nate thinks best. It's only a matter of time before you start calling for his head as well, and flipping on this group of players as fast as you've flipped on everyone else in the past.

At least you're predictable.

I would love to hear franklin call in to a radio show with knowledgeable hosts to discuss his current view that QS is only a +1.5 to Ty. I really would. Most folks know that when they can barely see the top of the hole and the dirt keeps falling back in on them to stop digging that hole.

They would all agree with me. Any talk show host worth me talking with understands the minimal impact coaching has on this game. On the open air they may argue with me to appease fans like you, but once the mic's were off they'd agree, thank me for the insight and stimulating conversation, then invite me back whenever I felt like coming.

I'd say that is about 3-4 years off if the Jazz are winning and thenonly if players start grumbling. If they start losing and the players object we could see it as early as next season.

Either way it'll be nonsense. Sloan never ran off anyone chasing a paycheck and neither will Quin. But that won't stop the bitching and moaning.

 

[franklin]

Well I'm convinced he is worth 1.5X as many wins as Corbin. He started the year with a younger roster and has already surpassed Ty's win total for the year. That despite more games lost to injury. And installing a new system on both ends of the floor and fixing all the crap the players were taught to do under Ty. Player's no longer stand around and watch the guy with the ball, They no longer guard empty space instead of plays, and they rarely just dribble the ball in place for the majority of the shot clock.
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This team with Corbin is probably pushing for a top 3-5 pick. Not winning more than 5 games in a row. Last years team quite on Ty and they showed it after the all star break. I didn't see any of the players defending TY when he was fired. Not even the players leaving the team.

The team likely fights for the playoffs with Corbin here, especially if he pissed off Kanter earlier than Quin did. I think Corbin would have benched his *** even faster, considering his track record of playing anyone (including Marvin at the four) trying to keep Kanter off the floor. Quin gave Kanter more minutes.

Also, with Corbin the team wouldn't have started off so slow due to continuity, and we'd likely be legitimately in a playoff hunt right now.

Exactly. I don't remember a franklin that was not a troll. He dishes out more hate toward posters that disagree with him that he receives yet some good posters on here fail to see it. He has not brought a new argument to the Corbin debate in years. Just continually trying to troll the same subject to prove he was right. Can't admit he was wrong, so he'll continue to troll the subject to death.
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When is the last time you read a Franklin post in the Jazz forum that was not about Corbin? If they are there I haven't seen them or don't remember them. Corbin has been gone almost a year and he still brings him up and bumps this thread continually.

Actually, as you well know, I mainly ignore you because you never have anything not bat **** crazy to say. Until you pester the hell out of me, at which point I let you know you aren't worth pissing on to put a fire out.

 

[candrew]

The team likely fights for the playoffs with Corbin here.

I'll be passing around the committal papers later tonight.

 

[Flc]

Watching franklin in this thread is like watching Bush explain the lack of WMDs or Hilary explaining the private email server.

 

[franklin]

Here's a fun question you blind Quin worshipers are avoiding like the plague.

Quin could improve on a defense consisting of no true center, and either Kanter or undersized Marvin and Evans playing a combined 48 minutes at the 4. Evans played 18 mpg at the 4. 18! Kanter played 26 mpg, some at the 4, some at the 5, and Marvin played 25 at the 4 and 3 combined. JLIII and the rest of the no point guard group logged enough minutes to make any defense an utter disaster.


Quin could not improve on that with a much better squad until the Kanter trade. Why?


Trevor Booker is a much better fill in at the 4 than Marvin (who has no business playing the 4 at all) or Evans (a novelty who appears to fit better on the Mixtape Tour than in the NBA).

Exum is head and heels better than anything the Jazz played at point last season. It's not even a comparison between him and Trey, let alone the rest of last year's mia squad. 21 mpg at point this season.

Derrick Favors at the 4. HUGE advantage year over year.

Rudy Gobert, true defensive center, and MUCH improved over last season, was playing 22 mpg pre-Kanter trade vs. 9.6 and constant foul trouble all last season.


All those advantages and Quin couldn't improve the defense until Kanter was traded. Why?

 

[franklin]

Watching franklin in this thread is like watching Bush explain the lack of WMDs or Hilary explaining the private email server.

More like watching Bill Nye discuss evolution with Pearl Watson, or Stephen Hawking discuss physics with a Westboro Baptist Church member.

 

[The Midnight]

Here's a fun question you blind Quin worshipers are avoiding like the plague.

Quin could improve on a defense consisting of no true center, and either Kanter or undersized Marvin and Evans playing a combined 48 minutes at the 4. Evans played 18 mpg at the 4. 18! Kanter played 26 mpg, some at the 4, some at the 5, and Marvin played 25 at the 4 and 3 combined. JLIII and the rest of the no point guard group logged enough minutes to make any defense an utter disaster.


Quin could not improve on that with a much better squad until the Kanter trade. Why?


Trevor Booker is a much better fill in at the 4 than Marvin (who has no business playing the 4 at all) or Evans (a novelty who appears to fit better on the Mixtape Tour than in the NBA).

Exum is head and heels better than anything the Jazz played at point last season. It's not even a comparison between him and Trey, let alone the rest of last year's mia squad. 21 mpg at point this season.

Derrick Favors at the 4. HUGE advantage year over year.

Rudy Gobert, true defensive center, and MUCH improved over last season, was playing 22 mpg pre-Kanter trade vs. 9.6 and constant foul trouble all last season.


All those advantages and Quin couldn't improve the defense until Kanter was traded. Why?

Quick question - do you give any credit to Quin for the development of Gobert?

 

[spycam1]

frank, would you honestly take Corbin over Snyder? I haven't followed this thread at all really, so I don't know if you're arguing that Corbin > Snyder, or just that Corbin isn't as bad as he's made out to be.

 

[Stoked]

Here's a fun question you blind Quin worshipers are avoiding like the plague.

Quin could improve on a defense consisting of no true center, and either Kanter or undersized Marvin and Evans playing a combined 48 minutes at the 4. Evans played 18 mpg at the 4. 18! Kanter played 26 mpg, some at the 4, some at the 5, and Marvin played 25 at the 4 and 3 combined. JLIII and the rest of the no point guard group logged enough minutes to make any defense an utter disaster.


Quin could not improve on that with a much better squad until the Kanter trade. Why?


Trevor Booker is a much better fill in at the 4 than Marvin (who has no business playing the 4 at all) or Evans (a novelty who appears to fit better on the Mixtape Tour than in the NBA).

Exum is head and heels better than anything the Jazz played at point last season. It's not even a comparison between him and Trey, let alone the rest of last year's mia squad. 21 mpg at point this season.

Derrick Favors at the 4. HUGE advantage year over year.

Rudy Gobert, true defensive center, and MUCH improved over last season, was playing 22 mpg pre-Kanter trade vs. 9.6 and constant foul trouble all last season.


All those advantages and Quin couldn't improve the defense until Kanter was traded. Why?

That is not actually correct. The defense started to improve back in January before the Kanter trade. It didn't explode till Kanter was traded but the trend had already started.

From Jan till the Allstar break the Jazz allowed 95.33 ppg from a quick add up. That is still good for #1 in the NBA by .1 a point (current rankings). That is 21 games with Kanter. During that time Kanter played 27.1 mpg. (He actually sat out 4 games in this stretch with that ankle sprain)

In 2013-14 Cobin played Kanter 26.7 mpg and the Jazz allowed 102.2 ppg. So the Quinn started to improve the D while Kanter was getting roughly equal burn.


Yes Corbin was handicapped by players such as JLIII and Biedrins. But to say Snyder didn't improve the D till Kanter left is not correct.

That is about as deep and insightful post as you are going to get from me. Hope it helps bring the discussion you and GVC want. I won't have time to reply so in depth again for the day.

 

[Nate505]

That's nice. I've never seen you be right about anything. In fact, I've never seen you post anything besides jumping from one anti-coaching tirade to the next. Hell, you've even been on Quin's *** already for not doing what Nate thinks best. It's only a matter of time before you start calling for his head as well, and flipping on this group of players as fast as you've flipped on everyone else in the past.

At least you're predictable.

Perhaps you're right about me not being right about anything, but in this case you're either just lying or don't know what the hell you're talking about. Knowing you I'm not sure which option makes more sense.

We do have a search engine here. As far as I can tell, the only thing I was critical about Quinn was that Rudy wasn't starting over Kanter, and I believe I've been proven right about that (well me and anyone else who saw how obviously better the Jazz played when Gobert was starting). And I prefaced that by saying that I still love Quinn as a coach. In other threads I've said he was a coaching genius.

But I can see a nerve has been touched with you. I'd feel bad too if I started a thread as insanely dumb as this one. I mean the premise of this thread is just laughable.

 

[b_line]

Here's a fun question you blind Quin worshipers are avoiding like the plague.

Quin could improve on a defense consisting of no true center, and either Kanter or undersized Marvin and Evans playing a combined 48 minutes at the 4. Evans played 18 mpg at the 4. 18! Kanter played 26 mpg, some at the 4, some at the 5, and Marvin played 25 at the 4 and 3 combined. JLIII and the rest of the no point guard group logged enough minutes to make any defense an utter disaster.


Quin could not improve on that with a much better squad until the Kanter trade. Why?


Trevor Booker is a much better fill in at the 4 than Marvin (who has no business playing the 4 at all) or Evans (a novelty who appears to fit better on the Mixtape Tour than in the NBA).

Exum is head and heels better than anything the Jazz played at point last season. It's not even a comparison between him and Trey, let alone the rest of last year's mia squad. 21 mpg at point this season.

Derrick Favors at the 4. HUGE advantage year over year.

Rudy Gobert, true defensive center, and MUCH improved over last season, was playing 22 mpg pre-Kanter trade vs. 9.6 and constant foul trouble all last season.


All those advantages and Quin couldn't improve the defense until Kanter was traded. Why?

Good points. One thing, Quin was improving the defense before Kanter was traded for sure, just slower than it has jumped since the trade.

I think the point about the roster being constructed to fail last year is a huge one. The players might be rookies and D-League players, but they fit way better than last year. I would bet that the Jazz Front Office does not view Ty in the same light that the fans do, and that they think more highly of him than a lot of fans. Ty was not a bad coach, but he was not Dennis Lindsay's guy. On equal footing, Quin is probably a bit better coach than Ty, but Quin being DL's pick is a huge point that has not been mentioned here. DL will build the roster the way he knows best to succeed, and he believes that Quin will be the guy who can succeed best with his roster. The discussion about Quin vs Ty is a bit more nuanced than a lot of posters believe.

Sure, Quin is probably a better coach overall. But the question is not necessarily about who is a better coach, it is about who fits better with the vision of the front office and the roster.

 

[b_line]

frank, would you honestly take Corbin over Snyder? I haven't followed this thread at all really, so I don't know if you're arguing that Corbin > Snyder, or just that Corbin isn't as bad as he's made out to be.

Frank has said he likes Quin better. I think he is just arguing that Ty is not a total turd.

 

[LogGrad98]

Ty is obviously fully vindicated in NBA circles. That is why he has such a lucrative multi-year contract coaching a contender.




Oh wait.

 

[gregbroncs]

The team likely fights for the playoffs with Corbin here, especially if he pissed off Kanter earlier than Quin did. I think Corbin would have benched his *** even faster, considering his track record of playing anyone (including Marvin at the four) trying to keep Kanter off the floor. Quin gave Kanter more minutes.

Also, with Corbin the team wouldn't have started off so slow due to continuity, and we'd likely be legitimately in a playoff hunt right now.




Actually, as you well know, I mainly ignore you because you never have anything not bat **** crazy to say. Until you pester the hell out of me, at which point I let you know you aren't worth pissing on to put a fire out.

Perfect Example. For those defending this troll...Please tell me how. He says right in this post we would be better off this year with Corbin over Quin. Completely ignoring that half the players on this team quit on him last year. Claims we would be better off because of continuity but fails to accept that the team quit on Corbin. Hayward is having a banner year because Corbin no longer here. Favors if having his best year on both ends of the floor because Corbin is no longer here. Exum would be rotting away on the bench behind both Burke and Clark if Corbin was here. Because Corbin did not value defensive talent and Exum does not look good on offense.
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You say I don't say anything that's not crazy. Yet you just said Corbin would be better for the Jazz this year while completely ignoring all the problems Corbin had. Because of all the factors in the previous paragraph my assertion is that the Jazz would have 15-20 wins right now if Corbin was the coach. The team would be in a similar tail spin to last year. And we still wouldn't know what we had in Hood, Exum, Ingles (who never would have played for Corbin) Millsap or Gobert. You claim last years roster was set up to fail. But this years roster had far more question marks on it to start than any season Corbin coached.

 

[zman1527]

Frank has said he likes Quin better. I think he is just arguing that Ty is not a total turd.

As a HC, all evidence points to Ty's strong resemblance to a turd. Frank's points of defense are cherry-picked and misrepresented. Ty failed here, Ty failed so badly in Sacto that they bounced him in short order calling him a "mistake". Ty showed zero evidence of improving the Jazz. They finished way way down in most teams stats if I remember right. Frank just does not know when to admit defeat.