Ukraine

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Again, how's that a problem for the USA? What business is it of the USA what kind of government Russia, Ukraine, Egypt, or Germany have? No one is threatening to invade the US here.

lol

 

[Stoked]

Again, arguing that a problem for the USA? What business is it of the USA what kind of government Russia, Ukraine, Egypt, or Germany have? No one is threatening to invade the US here.

What the hell are you even arguing? No one on here has said its Americas problem. What...??

 

[Stoked]

The head of Ukraine's Navy just swore allegiance to Crimea and is Pro Russian.

UK has pulled out of G8 prepatoy talks in Sochi. France wants them suspended completely.

 

[franklin]

Who really gives two ****s about a bunch of jackasses who want to fight for hundreds of years over culture? I hope Russia engulfs this plague like a hungry amoeba and Obama hands him a hall pass and skittles for handling it. ****in playground drama.

 

[KillaCam]

This actually does involve the United States. In 1994, the US, Britain, Ukraine, and Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine got rid of its nuclear weapons in exchange for independence and sovereignty in its borders. And also to protect Ukraine from aggression and economic pressure. Russia has obviously crossed the line here and the U.S. should be stepping in now.

 

[Stoked]

This actually does involve the United States. In 1994, the US, Britain, Ukraine, and Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine got rid of its nuclear weapons in exchange for independence and sovereignty in its borders. And also to protect Ukraine from aggression and economic pressure. Russia has obviously crossed the line here and the U.S. should be stepping in now.

The Ukraine has singled out the US and UK for help against Russia. The Budapest Memorandum has been mentioned.

Edit: Russian news agency Interfax says Ukraine faces 3am GMT deadline for the navy in Crimea to surrender or face "a real assault" - The Telegraph

So if Russia does start shooting it out with the Ukrainian military what happens then? Will the West come to their aid militarily? I don't think so and I think Russia has the same opinion.

The deadline is 10 PM Eastern Time.

 

[franklin]

The Ukraine has singled out the US and UK for help against Russia. The Budapest Memorandum has been mentioned.

Edit: Russian news agency Interfax says Ukraine faces 3am GMT deadline for the navy in Crimea to surrender or face "a real assault" - The Telegraph

So if Russia does start shooting it out with the Ukrainian military what happens then? Will the West come to their aid militarily? I don't think so and I think Russia has the same opinion.

The deadline is 10 PM Eastern Time.

Stoked bro, you've pretty much predicted every one of these wrong (ends in disaster/apocalypse/godfirenbrimstonekillingyourfirstborn). Remember when teh end-o-days was happening in your south china seas?

 

[Stoked]

Stoked bro, you've pretty much predicted every one of these wrong (ends in disaster/apocalypse/godfirenbrimstonekillingyourfirstborn). Remember when teh end-o-days was happening in your south china seas?

Never predicted that. Simply update what is happening in different situations and ask for opinions. Keep pretending to actually read my posts though. its nice.

 

[♪alt13]

The problem with not getting involved Thriller is that Russia will become even more bold. They paralyze the UN as a veto member of the Security Council. China doesn't care and EU is not strong enough. So that leaves America.

Russia wants its old power and glory back. Look at what they did to Georgia. Now Ukraine. Who is next? At what point is enough, enough?

Problem with withdrawing from the world is that the two other most powerful nations (Russia and China) are not America friendly. If we do and say nothing the eastern Euro nations (Ukraine, Georgia, Uzbekistan, Coatia, Estonia...) will fall one by one to Russian power and influence. The Asian countries ( Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Philippines, Japan...) will fall to China. You are already seeing clear steps taken in that direction.

Then China and Russia are each American equals. I do not think they are our enemies yet but I certainly don't think they are friendly.

You are over exagerating Russia's influence. The Crimea is literally on their door step. Russia's little invasion into the Crimea will ultimately be good for the US. We will hurl insults and even a few sanctions but this will pass. The result will be a reminder to our Nato allies why they need us and Putin will serve as an important counter balance to Svboda(white washed neo nazis)in the western Ukraine.

 

[Stoked]

You are over exagerating Russia's influence. The Crimea is literally on their door step. Russia's little invasion into the Crimea will ultimately be good for the US. We will hurl insults and even a few sanctions but this will pass. The result will be a reminder to our Nato allies why they need us and Putin will serve as an important counter balance to Svboda(white washed neo nazis)in the western Ukraine.

All of the countries I mentioned are on Russias doorstep. Just playing a little Devils advocate. But this is now the 2nd example of this from Russia.

Also saw an interesting question on The Telegraph. How will Syria and Iran see this when determining if they bet on the right ally between Russia and America?

 

[Hantlers]

Yay! Murica's coming to save the day! The great supporter of UN and opponent of unilateral action.

Unless Russia become so bold it actually invades US territory, I don't see how any of this is any business of the US.

I am unbelievably shocked that you are wrong. Again.

 

[♪alt13]

All of the countries I mentioned are on Russias doorstep. Just playing a little Devils advocate. But this is now the 2nd example of this from Russia.

Also saw an interesting question on The Telegraph. How will Syria and Iran see this when determining if they bet on the right ally between Russia and America?

Almost all of our European Nato allies have not lived up to their pledge to sustain military spending at least 2% of GDP(we currently spend over 4% gdp). They are not our allies they are freeloaders. The EU has a larger GDP and larger population than the US and much larger than Russia.

I say **** the EU. Why should we put our necks out so that the EU can expand it's influence into the Ukraine or Georgia?

Maybe telegraph.co.uk should have been asking "Do we raise taxes or cut social spending when the Americans are done playing in our sandbox?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/world/europe/europes-shrinking-military-spending-under-scrutiny.html?pagewanted=1

 

[Stoked]

Almost all of our European Nato allies have not lived up to their pledge to sustain military spending at least 2% of GDP(we currently spend over 4% gdp). They are not our allies they are freeloaders. The EU has a larger GDP and larger population than the US and much larger than Russia.

I say **** the EU. Why should we put our necks out so that the EU can expand it's influence into the Ukraine or Georgia?

Maybe telegraph.co.uk should have been asking "Do we raise taxes or cut social spending when the Americans are done playing in our sandbox?"

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/world/europe/europes-shrinking-military-spending-under-scrutiny.html?pagewanted=1

You make some very good points. The problem with saying "F the EU" though is that they are basically our closest ally. NATO, Britian, France, Germany, Poland...if America cuts them lose then no one will feel they can trust us and no one will make agreements and treaties with us. This would negatively affect our relationship with Japan, S, Korea, the Philippines, Australia...

For good or bad we have linked ourselves to certain countries. Just dropping them is not the answer. Making them shoulder more of the burden gradually would be far more effective. Such as Japan changing their constitution and making mutual defense legal. That way they can shoot down and rockets aimed at America from China and N Korea (not that I think any will be fired but you get the point). Reduce the troops in Germany and make countries like Germany, Poland, Italy and Spain start taking larger roles in military drills and excersizes. Perhaps remove a key piece of military tech from their country and push them into a corner where they have to develop that capability for them selves.

Japan and Britian seem to be headed that way on their own. They are building aircraft carriers and otherwise increasing their military equipment.

Then there the whole economic side to the arguement. Getting the eastern NATO countries and the Phillipines in a better economic situation is clearly ideal.

But like it or not we will forever be tied to NATO/EU, Canada, Japan, S Korea, Israel, Australia...

 

[Duck Rodgers]

This seems like kind of a big deal, no?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014...-new-coaltion-stunning-new-leak-reveals-truth

The last time a leaked phone call out of Ukraine was released about a month ago ostensibly by the Russian NSA equivalent, one between US assistant sec state Victoria Nuland and the US envoy to the Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, it was revealed that the real puppet masters behind the Maidan movement, and the true instigators of the Ukraine "revolution" were none other than the "developed" world superpowers, lead by the US. Also revealed were tensions between the US and EU strategies on how to overthrow the current government, culminating with the infamous "**** the EU." Needless to say the US, which implicitly confirmed the recording, was angry at Russia and accused it of using dirty tricks.

That's ironic, because when it comes to "dirty tricks" what is about to be presented, blows the top off anything Russia may or has done to date.

Earlier today an even more shocking recording has been "leaked" this time one between the always concerned about human rights EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet, in which it is revealed on tape that all those photos of horrifying deaths of Ukrainians by snipers during the last days of the Median stand off, were in fact caused not by Snipers controlled by Yanukovich, but that the snipers shot at both protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders!

 

[dodo]

Yeah, right. Hired by the protesters. And also, there are NO Russian troops in Crimea, just self-defense forces. It is all ******** propaganda and idiot politicians that have no ****ing clue what is going on on the ground.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

During the conversation, Paet quoted a woman named Olga – who the Russian media identified her as Olga Bogomolets, a doctor – blaming snipers from the opposition shooting the protesters.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10677370/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.
"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."

The russian spinners also mention that they used the same type of bullets. How is an MD being able to do a forensic analysis of the bullets. And as she said, she didn't have access to both sides.

#FOGOFWAR

 

[Duck Rodgers]

Yeah, right. Hired by the protesters. And also, there are NO Russian troops in Crimea, just self-defense forces. It is all ******** propaganda and idiot politicians that have no ****ing clue what is going on on the ground.

Definitely agree with that last part. Though seemingly propaganda of course is often times true. It's just kind of hard to tell in the moment. I personally don't think it's a smoking gun or anything, but an interesting angle that possibly deserves some investigation, more than a psssssh by that Euro bureaucrat. The Olga lady is not just merely a doctor though, she's been a pretty integral part of the Maidan side from what I've read. The issue seems to be the disconnect between what she might have said, and what Mr. Estonia wanted to hear. It would be nice to know a little more background on him and his connections and who exactly "leaked" the call and how they got it.

Either way, Russian Intelligence is putting everyone on notice that they are being recorded, that's for sure.

 

[dodo]

Definitely agree with that last part. Though seemingly propaganda of course is often times true. It's just kind of hard to tell in the moment. I personally don't think it's a smoking gun or anything, but an interesting angle that possibly deserves some investigation, more than a psssssh by that Euro bureaucrat. The Olga lady is not just merely a doctor though, she's been a pretty integral part of the Maidan side from what I've read. The issue seems to be the disconnect between what she might have said, and what Mr. Estonia wanted to hear. It would be nice to know a little more background on him and his connections and who exactly "leaked" the call and how they got it.

I think they got it the same way NSA got the Merkel call. And because it serves them (the ex-KGB, whatever it is called now - FSB, or whatever), they posted it online. The parties involved in the talk confirmed its authenticity. I seriously doubt the protester leaders would hire snipers to shoot their own people in order to spark a revolution. We've seen weirder events but this plot sounds too conspiratory for the opposition to pull out.

 

[babe]

A few seemingly different perspectives might be useful. Here's a socialist calling for us to return to our Constitution and reject being a puppet for the Brit world order, sometimes perversely called a "new" world order:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4FKoNtNhE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Stoked]

The Crimean parliament has voted to ask Russia to join Russi and secceed from Ukraine.

At the request of NATO member countries the US is more than doubling its fighter aircraft in the east NATO countries. (We have 4 F15s there now and we are sending 6 more F15s and a KC-135 to Lithuania)

America has imposed Visa restrictions on specific Russians and Crimeans. Sanctions as well.

Military observes have been sent form 15+ nations (includine America, Canada, Britain) to Ukraine/Crimea.

A UN delgation that was in Crimea was chased by gunmen but unharmed.

 

[♪alt13]

I seriously doubt the protester leaders would hire snipers to shoot their own people in order to spark a revolution. We've seen weirder events but this plot sounds too conspiratory for the opposition to pull out.

I wouldn't put it past Oleh.

U.S. Senator John McCain, right, meets Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk, left, and Oleh Tyahnybok in Kiev, Ukraine, Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013.

This one is Oleh.

Here are some of his goons.(note the swastika like emblem they wear around their arms)

Oleh Tyahnybok and other party leaders have been accused of making numerous anti-Semitic and racist remarks. In 2004, Tyahnybok urged his party in a televised speech to fight “the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine.”

In 2012, deputy party leader Ihor Miroshnychenko called actress Mila Kunis, who was born in the Ukraine, a “dirty Jewess,” which instantly drew international condemnation. Another party official, Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn founded a think tank called the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre, which was named as a tribute to the notorious Nazi propaganda minister.

Here is a link to who is in charge(note that Oleh's Svboda party holds the Deputy Prime Minister position and that Andriy Parubiy, the new National Security Chief, was a founding member of Svboda)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov