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Utah Jazz VS the cavs moo....Fri. Jan 10 7:00 PM ROOT Sports 97.5 FM / 1280 AM / 960 AM

nateboz said:
I have to imagine you have watched actually watched Stock and Malone. So thinking that Trey and Favors are anything like them is a far cry. It's like saying a 63 Corvette is comparable to a 2010 Mustang. They both have fans. Not a bad car but its obvious that one is superior to the other. If you honestly think that Favors and Trey or Alec, Enes, Gordon have a chance to be on that level I've got some obvious bad news for you.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should all just find another team to root for then? I'm so confused!
 
nateboz said:
Even as a rookie Karl was a stud. By his 4th year he was playing at an all star level. Favors Kanter Burks and Hayward are still not.
I'm not saying they never will never be an allstar. I'm saying they aren't perennial all stars. That is what the jazz need. And they most likely need 2 or 3 to win a title.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...
Karl was 23 in his rookie season. He was older than seven of the players on our team are right now (Burks, Burke, Clark, Favors, Gobert, Hayward and Kanter). You are claiming you can predict the future of all of those guys and I am saying you don't know nearly as much as you think you do. I remember Karl's rookie season well. I thought he was great and I agree with you that it was easier to see his star power at that point than Stockton's, but nobody foresaw the career he eventually put together. I'll bet that if Karl had been drafted at age 19 people like you would have given up on him by the time he was 23.
 
nateboz said:
I have to imagine you have watched actually watched Stock and Malone. So thinking that Trey and Favors are anything like them is a far cry. It's like saying a 63 Corvette is comparable to a 2010 Mustang. They both have fans. Not a bad car but its obvious that one is superior to the other. If you honestly think that Favors and Trey or Alec, Enes, Gordon have a chance to be on that level I've got some obvious bad news for you.
Click to expand...
Well, many people with much better knowledge of basketball (scouts and GMs) have been watching Karl and John play for 4 seasons by the time they turned 22. And they decided that no way that these two could become stars. It was quite obvious to them that Wayman Tisdale, Jon Koncak and Benoit Benjamin would become the future star bigs and Lancaster Gordon and Leon Wood - future star guards.
 
I don't get the Kanter fanboys.
EK played 25 minutes and played very well, 15/10 baby!
Now that is improvement and development!
25 minutes of NBA bball is what EK needs for now, and also good rebounding!
He will be fine!
and the loss is a win! (poor Orwellian reversal attempt)
 
[table="width: 700, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Name[/td]
[td]Season[/td]
[td]Age[/td]
[td]Experience[/td]
[td]MIN[/td]
[td]PTS[/td]
[td]FG%[/td]
[td]FT%[/td]
[td]REB[/td]
[td]AST[/td]
[td]STL[/td]
[td]BLK[/td]
[td]TOV[/td]
[td]TS%[/td]
[td]eFG%[/td]
[td]TRB%[/td]
[td]AST%[/td]
[td]TOV%[/td]
[td]USG%[/td]
[td]ORtg[/td]
[td]DRtg[/td]
[td]NetRtg[/td]
[td]WS/48[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Malone[/td]
[td]1985-86[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[td]Rookie[/td]
[td]30.6[/td]
[td]14.9[/td]
[td].496[/td]
[td].481[/td]
[td]8.9[/td]
[td]2.9[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]0.5[/td]
[td]3.4[/td]
[td].504[/td]
[td].496[/td]
[td]15.8[/td]
[td]14.2[/td]
[td]18.9[/td]
[td]24.1[/td]
[td]92[/td]
[td]102[/td]
[td]-10[/td]
[td].036[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Favors[/td]
[td]2013-14[/td]
[td]22[/td]
[td]3 years[/td]
[td]31.6[/td]
[td]13.5[/td]
[td].527[/td]
[td].680[/td]
[td]8.9[/td]
[td]1.3[/td]
[td]1.1[/td]
[td]1.4[/td]
[td]2.0[/td]
[td].542[/td]
[td].517[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[td]7.1[/td]
[td]14[/td]
[td]20.2[/td]
[td]107[/td]
[td]105[/td]
[td]2[/td]
[td].091[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Kanter[/td]
[td]2013-14[/td]
[td]21[/td]
[td]2 years[/td]
[td]25.4[/td]
[td]11[/td]
[td].471[/td]
[td].770[/td]
[td]6.1[/td]
[td]0.9[/td]
[td]0.4[/td]
[td]0.7[/td]
[td]1.9[/td]
[td].504[/td]
[td].471[/td]
[td]13.5[/td]
[td]6.1[/td]
[td]14.6[/td]
[td]22.7[/td]
[td]97[/td]
[td]110[/td]
[td]-13[/td]
[td].022[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

I looked up the stats for you guys. At the age of 22 Derrick is a better rebounder than Karl, he has a better FG% and FT% than Karl, doesn't turn the ball as much over as Karl and in contrast to Karl he is actually not a bad faktor while in the game(Derrick: +2, Karl: -10). But Karl had more points and was the better passer and all of that with a higher USG% which means he was more susceptible for mistakes. Obviously the stats don't tell the whole story and certainly don't show how a player will develop but how can anybody say that some of the guys won't develop into a star? I wasn't even born when Karl was a rookie so I can't really make a statement how he looked when he was on the court, but after really analyzing the stats could anybody really predict that he will be a star in this League? To be honest I don't.
On a side note: It would be really nice to see(or not) how Corbin would've handled Karl when he was 22.
 
enes kanter is fully healed i guess so i wanna **** corbin because enes needs pt and i don't agree with you Tarkanian. Ride Enes for 48 minutes amk
 
If we got rid of Marvin, and RJ I'd be ok more with any result. Winning with these two guys is upsetting for the future.

Again we truly haven't turned this team over to the young guns. Trey gets the start, but there is zero competition. Burks gets more
playing time, but not enough. Marvin is finally easier on the stomach, but is he apart of our future? Why on earth is RJ even here?

I thought the plan was clear to start out the season. Play and develop the young guys, lose games most likely, and get the high pick to go with what would have been our seasoned core next year. Now its like lets play vets who probably won't be here next year, and win just enough games to not get a good lotto pick, and not make the playoffs? What the hell Jazz?!!? Dennis what exactly is your plan?
 
Favors, Hay, and Trey are getting the work this year, but why not throw Burks, Gobert, and Kanter completely into the fire as well? Shouldn't they learn how to play together a lot? Shouldn't they learn how to win now without the vets? Does winning games this year with Marvin and RJ as featured players mean anything?
 
Revolution 9 said:
Favors, Hay, and Trey are getting the work this year, but why not throw Burks, Gobert, and Kanter completely into the fire as well? Shouldn't they learn how to play together a lot? Shouldn't they learn how to win now without the vets? Does winning games this year with Marvin and RJ as featured players mean anything?
Click to expand...

This team in the long turn would be much better with Kanter starting ahead of Marvin. Marvin just gives 3 point shooting and passing, he can not defend anyone right their. Tristan totally humiliated him, but Corbin gave him 28 minutes, because he hit a damn three the start of the game.
Kanter is not the same Kanter he was at the start of the season. At the start of the season we saw Kanter without motor and strenght getting 14/8. I really would love to see how Kanter would do right now as a starter with having his motor and strenght back. Dude is special but Corbin is a ****in idiot...
 
CAKAR said:
This team in the long turn would be much better with Kanter starting ahead of Marvin. Marvin just gives 3 point shooting and passing, he can not defend anyone right their. Tristan totally humiliated him, but Corbin gave him 28 minutes, because he hit a damn three the start of the game.
Kanter is not the same Kanter he was at the start of the season. At the start of the season we saw Kanter without motor and strenght getting 14/8. I really would love to see how Kanter would do right now as a starter with having his motor and strenght back. Dude is special but Corbin is a ****in idiot...
Click to expand...

In the case of Corbin as Idiot, that is not the case. Much of Corbin's methods are style or a philosophical choice. Substitution patterns he learned from Jerry. I can see disagreeing, but his not an idiot. The Jazz bring along younger guys with less minutes This is a reasonble ' long term strategy. Kanter in particular struggled at the start of the Season so it was a good a good idea to limit his minutes. It is also clear that Kanter is/has his game back now. But that doesn't mean it works for the team to drop Marvin out and Put in Kanter without some smooth transition. That action, if drastic, would cause serious locker room grief. Kanter has to be "melded"in. And... there is no pressing reason to push too hard for the transition. Kanter is getting time in the "B- league" and that has been good for him.
 
Revolution 9 said:
Favors, Hay, and Trey are getting the work this year, but why not throw Burks, Gobert, and Kanter completely into the fire as well? Shouldn't they learn how to play together a lot? Shouldn't they learn how to win now without the vets? Does winning games this year with Marvin and RJ as featured players mean anything?
Click to expand...
why not "throw them in"?
The JAZZ (jerry and TY at least) have shown their preference for system development as a priority. I believe this is part of the reason for vet preference . Other players, like Hayward, Favors, Burke are beneficiaries of Marvin RJ playing. It is clear to all that Trey Burke is vital for the JAZZ offense to run. Hence he gets full (non-rookie) Mins. I think there are many more factors in play, and worth managing than just putting all the kids together "into the fire" I think the role for Burks this year has been good. He is progressing well, gets burn at end of games and appears to like his situation (my impression from watching)

Ultimately, it appears the jazz are using this year to both develop and tank... And that plan is debatable by us fans . ("Just tank, baby" is the other)

BTW- this game was tanked in my opinion. Hayward is out,and all of a sudden , the whole rotation is different.
 
mellow said:
So I know this is incredibly hypocritical of me....but where the freak are the fans? It was funny two years ago, it was understandable last year, but this year it is worrisome.

Sooner or later the Millers are gonna start noticing it where people like them notice things...in the pocketbook.
Click to expand...

Out goes Corbin, in comes Orangello

Sent from my Nexus 5 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
oldtimer said:
What does Kanter have to do to get 30 mins. a game? In the second quarter the Cavs were literally sending three guys to stop him. He played great.
Click to expand...

This. I would only add, what does he have to do to start games against big line ups? Marvin is getting owned most nights.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
The Advanced Stats for this game:

[table="width: 700, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Players[/td]
[td]MIN[/td]
[td]OffRtg*[/td]
[td]DefRtg*[/td]
[td]NetRtg*[/td]
[td]ORTG**[/td]
[td]DRtg**[/td]
[td]NetRtg**[/td]
[td]AST%[/td]
[td]REB%[/td]
[td]TO Ratio[/td]
[td]eFG%[/td]
[td]TS%[/td]
[td]USG%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Hayward[/td]
[td]DNP[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Burke[/td]
[td]32.4[/td]
[td]96.6[/td]
[td]111.8[/td]
[td]-15.2[/td]
[td]111[/td]
[td]121[/td]
[td]-10[/td]
[td]37.5%[/td]
[td]3.6%[/td]
[td]8.5[/td]
[td]53.3%[/td]
[td]55.1%[/td]
[td]25.6%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Favors[/td]
[td]28.5[/td]
[td]94.7[/td]
[td]115.7[/td]
[td]-21.0[/td]
[td]94[/td]
[td]123[/td]
[td]-29[/td]
[td]0.0%[/td]
[td]12.5%[/td]
[td]7.3[/td]
[td]45.5%[/td]
[td]47.0%[/td]
[td]22.5%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Burks[/td]
[td]33.4[/td]
[td]92.0[/td]
[td]116.1[/td]
[td]-24.1[/td]
[td]91[/td]
[td]125[/td]
[td]-34[/td]
[td]11.1%[/td]
[td]8.2%[/td]
[td]14.9[/td]
[td]50.0%[/td]
[td]53.1%[/td]
[td]24.9%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Kanter[/td]
[td]25.0[/td]
[td]117.9[/td]
[td]119.6[/td]
[td]-1.7[/td]
[td]131[/td]
[td]115[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[td]0.0%[/td]
[td]24.4%[/td]
[td]0.0[/td]
[td]55.6%[/td]
[td]59.9%[/td]
[td]21.9%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Williams[/td]
[td]27.2[/td]
[td]103.5[/td]
[td]119.0[/td]
[td]-15.5[/td]
[td]53[/td]
[td]121[/td]
[td]-68[/td]
[td]0.0%[/td]
[td]8.7%[/td]
[td]0.0[/td]
[td]25.0%[/td]
[td]25.0%[/td]
[td]10.7%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Jefferson[/td]
[td]30.1[/td]
[td]96.6[/td]
[td]114.1[/td]
[td]-17.5[/td]
[td]122[/td]
[td]128[/td]
[td]-6[/td]
[td]26.7%[/td]
[td]1.9%[/td]
[td]10.4[/td]
[td]68.2%[/td]
[td]68.2%[/td]
[td]24.1%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Garett[/td]
[td]20.4[/td]
[td]119.7[/td]
[td]140.3[/td]
[td]-20.6[/td]
[td]99[/td]
[td]129[/td]
[td]-30[/td]
[td]29.4%[/td]
[td]0.0%[/td]
[td]8.3[/td]
[td]41.7%[/td]
[td]41.7%[/td]
[td]15.8%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Rush[/td]
[td]17.9[/td]
[td]122.8[/td]
[td]135.5[/td]
[td]-12.8[/td]
[td]69[/td]
[td]123[/td]
[td]-54[/td]
[td]17.6%[/td]
[td]7.7%[/td]
[td]12.5[/td]
[td]25.0%[/td]
[td]25.0%[/td]
[td]12.2%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Evans[/td]
[td]15.3[/td]
[td]115.6[/td]
[td]143.5[/td]
[td]-27.8[/td]
[td]181[/td]
[td]127[/td]
[td]54[/td]
[td]9.1%[/td]
[td]13.0%[/td]
[td]0.0[/td]
[td]100%[/td]
[td]87.2%[/td]
[td]10.3%[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

- Gordons injury was good for the tank but I would much rather see him on the court and one of the vets(or maybe both) taking a seat
- The defense was just terrible
- Love the USG% from Trey, Alec, Derrick, Enes and Marv; hate the % from RJ
- Good ASG% from Try but should have more AST doe
- What's up with D-Favs REB%? He is strugging the last five games(REB%: 12.1). And again no AST for Derrick.
- b2b not so great games for Alec. His raw numbers are looking good but he had a really bad impact. Nice thing is his 3FG% is improving(nov.:31%,dec.:39%,so far jan.:40%). If he just can get a reliable jumper he will be deadly!
- Enes is getting it together step by step but he is not over the hump yet. This TO Ratio looks really nice and his REB% the last 6 games was good.
- Marv I don't know where he was but definitly not on the court.
- Hate the fakt that the Starting PF, C and best big of the bench don't have any AST! Hate it!

FYI Enes and Favors were together on the floor for 5 minutes. In this time the team had an OffRtg of 97.6 and an DefRtg of 83.6. Which equas a NetRtg of 14.

* OffRtg, DefRtg and NetRtg: The number of points scored/allowed per 100 possessions by a team. For a player, it is the number of points per 100 possessions that the team scores/allows while that individual player is on the court. (From nba.com)
** ORtg and DRtg: For players it is points produced/allowed per 100 posessions (from basketball-reference.com)
 
Well
, many people with much better knowledge of basketball (scouts and GMs) have been watching Karl and John play for 4 seasons by the time they turned 22. And they decided that no way that these two could become stars. It was quite obvious to them that Wayman Tisdale, Jon Koncak and Benoit Benjamin would become the future star bigs and Lancaster Gordon and Leon Wood - future star guards.
Click to expand...

Exactly right doubledribble! This is why i have tried to discourage jazzfanz posters from having to much faith in tanking and what it could bring us. What seems to be conventional wisdom today changes drastically after the fact. So many examples like this that are just being ignored by the tank corps. They are blinded by the James, Jordan, Durant stories. Are we really willing to risk this franchises future for a longshot? Championship soon or die? Sadly the answer to this is "YES" to too many posters here that should know better.
 
Revolution 9 said:
If we got rid of Marvin, and RJ I'd be ok more with any result. Winning with these two guys is upsetting for the future.

Again we truly haven't turned this team over to the young guns. Trey gets the start, but there is zero competition. Burks gets more
playing time, but not enough. Marvin is finally easier on the stomach, but is he apart of our future? Why on earth is RJ even here?

I thought the plan was clear to start out the season. Play and develop the young guys, lose games most likely, and get the high pick to go with what would have been our seasoned core next year. Now its like lets play vets who probably won't be here next year, and win just enough games to not get a good lotto pick, and not make the playoffs? What the hell Jazz?!!? Dennis what exactly is your plan?
Click to expand...

What if he plans to re-sign them both? It wouldn't surprise me if they've already done some preliminary negotiations.
 
I don't think I it matters as long as you have a coach who is fighting for his coaching life.

RJ could have told DL weeks ago that he's going to bail at the end of this season for a contender. Corbin shouldn't let that affect his decision to play or not play RJ.

Corbin needs to do what is best for himself. Until the Jazz extend Corbin, he's going to do what is best for the short-term, long-term success be damned. If the Jazz were to extend Corbin a few years, I could see him diminishing vet PT in favor of the tank or long-term development of the young players.

I think some of us are asking Corbin to do the future HC of the Jazz favors. Tank and develop this young talent while destroying your own career. Then the new guy can step into an ideal situation while Corbin remains unemployed.
 
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