Utah Trade Deadline Discussion

[idiot]

I don't think it's a phenomenon exclusive to us. What I'm pointing out is it's a very weak argument of rationalization when it comes up. Also, I'm on record saying I think DL is an elite GM and probably top three. He, like any of the reset of us humans, has blind-spots, biases, and faults. The fact that he's landed Gobert and Mitchell doesn't mean that he executes every move with precision and exactness. It's funny that we critique players on what they do, while we still like them, but somehow there's a huge appeal to authority with FOs (again not a Utah phenomenon) where we rationalize their moves through something akin to Papal infallibility.

Sure. And I don't have a problem with the kind of stuff you're promoting for Miritic: something that seems achievable and on which you (seem to) differ from DL's judgment. Time will tell in this case, because we fairly clearly seem to know what's on the table.

It's more the "we've got to move this guy or that guy" kind of argument I'm getting at -- the kind of things where we don't really know what's on the table or what the markets generally are.

Is it indeed better to move Favors if all we can get is a late 2nd, for example? Is it best to move Hood if the best offer is Richaun Holmes and a 2nd? We really don't know what the cost-benefit calculations are for moving particular players at this point (and unfortunately we may never know with any detail).

We can speculate all we want about the market, but to hold these speculations against DL, so early in the trade-deadline game seems somewhat silly.

 

[infection]

There is a very significant difference in evaluating players and front offices though. Excepting things like unknown nagging injuries, personal life issues, etc., we get to see everything about players' performances on the court. We can see how they play with others -- both with and against, see their shooting and playmaking abilities, etc. The data is there, and we can put together a pretty complete picture.

The situation couldn't be any different when it comes to evaluating front office moves. As much as we like to think we know (myself absolutely included), we really probably don't even have 10% of the information that is being worked with. No idea what trades are available, being discussed, etc.

So, I don't think there's any kind of "papal infallibility" being credited to the front office, but at a certain point we can't critique too hard, just because we simply don't know what there is to work with.

I think the appeal to authority as an explanation to anything that doesn't make sense is what gets me. People do this with physicians where their wisdom or training is elevated to be an answer when something doesn't make sense. "So you question the doctor who's been in school and training for 12 years?" I'd view GMing as similar to being a physician -- running a team requires a lot of decisions and managing many things that the superiority of the professional over the layman gets noticed with aggregate decisions. On individual decisions alone? It becomes more of a toss-up. You wouldn't want some arm-chair quarterback taking care of your mom in the hospital, but when it came down to a question like "should mom be on _____ medication" you may be surprised how often a lay person could stack up against someone with more training based on one isolated decision.

e.g. "should we trade for Rubio?"

 

[infection]

Sure. And I don't have a problem with the kind of stuff you're promoting for Miritic: something that seems achievable and on which you (seem to) differ from DL's judgment. Time will tell in this case, because we fairly clearly seem to know what's on the table.

It's more the "we've got to move this guy or that guy" kind of argument I'm getting at -- the kind of things where we don't really know what's on the table or what the markets generally are.

Is it indeed better to move Favors if all we can get is a late 2nd, for example? Is it best to move Hood if the best offer is Richaun Holmes and a 2nd? We really don't know what the cost-benefit calculations are for moving particular players at this point (and unfortunately we may never know with any detail).

We can speculate all we want about the market, but to hold these speculations against DL, so early in the trade-deadline game seems somewhat silly.

Yeah. I guess I'm with you on that. I'm not really expecting a move for Hood and I've expressed much skepticism about there being a move or what the market is, so I suppose we're seeing eye-to-eye here. With Mirotic being there for the taking, I think the fact that we haven't moved for him will be a huge blunder, especially if someone swoops in unexpectedly like a New Orleans. Yes we can rationalize that we were trying to play a tight hand of poker but if we let a bird in the hand get away because we thought we could squeeze a little more out of a deal, then I'd view the bird that got away as much greater than the potential savings of squeezing the deal.

 

[idiot]

This was probably brought up yesterday but I missed it. Is there any reason why the following trade doesn't work?

Pelicans get: Derrick Favors
Bulls get: Omer Asik and the Pelicans 1st
Jazz get: Nikola Mirotic

The Pelicans want a serviceable big to help keep them in the playoff hunt with Boogie out. But they don't want to be locked into the second year Mirotic has with his team option. So they get Favors instead.

The Bulls get the 1st round pick that they want for Mirotic.

The Jazz get the stretch 4 they want and are fine with the Bulls picking up his team option for next year before he's dealt.

Mirotic gets his contract picked up like he wants and he ends up in his preferred destination.

Seems like a win-win-win-win for all parties. The only thing I can think of is maybe NO doesn't want Favs for whatever reason?

Only thing I've heard beside the "don't want Favors" and "don't help a rival" possibilities (which I don't take too strongly, but don't totally discount either), is that NO may be trying to leverage more out of the deal before accepting Mirotic's second year -- specifically unloading Ajinca's salary as well. ... But who knows?

I've also seen some sentiment (not specifically on this proposal but in general), that a straight up Favors-Mirotic swap is too favorable for the Jazz (Favors being an expiring and all) and so the Jazz need to be prepared to put a little more skin in the game.

 

[elan_prodigy]

The Cavs can trade the Brooklyn pick for sure. However, who can they get with that pick who is worth it who is actually available?

Mirotic? Kemba? Expiring Lou Williams? Expiring Avery Bradley? DeAndre Jordan? Who else?

None of those guys are worth the Brooklyn pick. They are worth the Cavs pick, but Favors plays the position Love just vacated.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

I think we need to include our 2018 1st to get that Brooklyn Pick. Any ideas?

Something like.

Favs, Hood, Udoh, Utah 1st
For
TT, Osman, Brooklyn pick?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Memphis has shutdown Tyreke Evans too in anticipation of the trade deadline.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Bulls have shut down Mirotic per ESPN -- http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22278578/the-chicago-bulls-shut-nikola-mirotic-explore-trades

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Any team that plans to face the Warriors in the playoffs could really use Favors to guard Draymond. Favors looked fantastic defensively against Draymond last night. Cavs, Celtics, Wizards, Thunder, Bucks...

 

[radiohegel]

I think the appeal to authority as an explanation to anything that doesn't make sense is what gets me. People do this with physicians where their wisdom or training is elevated to be an answer when something doesn't make sense. "So you question the doctor who's been in school and training for 12 years?" I'd view GMing as similar to being a physician -- running a team requires a lot of decisions and managing many things that the superiority of the professional over the layman gets noticed with aggregate decisions. On individual decisions alone? It becomes more of a toss-up. You wouldn't want some arm-chair quarterback taking care of your mom in the hospital, but when it came down to a question like "should mom be on _____ medication" you may be surprised how often a lay person could stack up against someone with more training based on one isolated decision.

e.g. "should we trade for Rubio?"

I guess what I was getting at was that it's less of an appeal to authority than an appeal to having complete information. DL is in a better spot to make decisions because he knows what is on the market, and what various asking prices are, etc. He is also aware of what trades we would be closing ourselves off from by chasing others. It could be that there is another awesome trade opportunity we have no idea about, and that trading for Mirotic would foreclose that option. I'm sure there are lots of factors that go well beyond what we can see from our vantage points.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Any team that plans to face the Warriors in the playoffs could really use Favors to guard Draymond. Favors looked fantastic defensively against Draymond last night. Cavs, Celtics, Wizards, Thunder...

Interesting thought considering that the Jazz are only 3.5 games out of the 8th spot and (would then likely) face the Warriors in the playoffs. Wonder if there’s any thought to extending Favors and ending that speculation?

Are the Jazz even allowed to do that?

 

[SCS]

I think we need to include our 2018 1st to get that Brooklyn Pick. Any ideas?

Something like.

Favs, Hood, Udoh, Utah 1st
For
TT, Osman, Brooklyn pick?

The Cavs have already stated multiple times that they are not trading the Brooklyn pick. The only way that I think that they would even consider trading that pick is if they are receiving a star player that can help them win the Finals this year and tempt LeBron to stay in town. The only players on the Jazz that fit that bill are Gobert and Mitchell and we aren't trading them. So the Brooklyn pick isn't happening. I'm not sure why its even being discussed.

 

[mellow]

Memphis has shutdown Tyreke Evans too in anticipation of the trade deadline.

Not just shut him down, they sent him back to the hotel. He was shuttled from the arena to the team hotel for the night.

 

[elan_prodigy]

The Cavs have already stated multiple times that they are not trading the Brooklyn pick. The only way that I think that they would even consider trading that pick is if they are receiving a star player that can help them win the Finals this year and tempt LeBron to stay in town. The only players on the Jazz that fit that bill are Gobert and Mitchell and we aren't trading them. So the Brooklyn pick isn't happening. I'm not sure why its even being discussed.

Because they are getting another 1st (which hasnt been discussed).

Favs, Hood, Burks and taking a bad contract... isnt enough to move up 6-8 spots in the 1st round?

 

[idiot]

Any team that plans to face the Warriors in the playoffs could really use Favors to guard Draymond. Favors looked fantastic defensively against Draymond last night. Cavs, Celtics, Wizards, Thunder, Bucks...

Totally agree. And I wonder if this is one reason DL has kept Favors on as long as he has, with the hope that this might work in our favor. (Curse the injury luck these past couple years!)

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Because they are getting another 1st (which hasnt been discussed).

Favs, Hood, Burks and taking a bad contract... isnt enough to move up 6-8 spots in the 1st round?

Not in my eyes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LoPo]

I think we need to include our 2018 1st to get that Brooklyn Pick. Any ideas?

Something like.

Favs, Hood, Udoh, Utah 1st
For
TT, Osman, Brooklyn pick?

Unlike others, I think the Brooklyn pick could be had for the right price. Just like anything, it has a price.

I personally would rather keep our space and our pick rather than take Tristan Thompson. He would not fit next to Gobert at all.

 

[SCS]

Because they are getting another 1st (which hasnt been discussed).

Favs, Hood, Burks and taking a bad contract... isnt enough to move up 6-8 spots in the 1st round?

I don't think so. Why would the Cavs want to move back before knowing the lottery outcome? What if they swapped picks for role players and then their pick was #1 while the Jazz pick was #14?

 

[LoPo]

If teams fight over Tyreke Evans, that's only good news for Hood. Teams chasing the playoffs in the East (Milwaukee, Philadelphia and Boston) and the West (Denver and New Orleans) are among franchises expressing interest in acquiring Evans, league sources said.

As trade discussions involving Memphis Grizzlies guard Tyreke Evans intensify, the organization plans to sit him out until a deal is completed, league sources tell ESPN. The Grizzlies are shopping Evans to try and bring back a first-round draft pick, league sources said, and discussions with several playoff-contending teams have intensified in the past 24 hours.
Top Rumors, Trade, Tyreke Evans, Memphis Grizzlies

Tyreke is having a better year, but he's also playing 7 more minutes a game. Hood is shooting the same 3p% and would have similar stats if he got to play more. Tyreke costs $1 million more, is not a restricted free agent like Hood, and is 3 years older.

The price for Hood should be the same if not better than Tyreke.

 

[DasJazz]

Welp, Kevin Love just broke his hand so he's not likely to go anywhere.

 

[kabenac]

What's funny is the Cavs are 3-7 in their last 10 and it's all falling apart for them and yet they claim they won't trade the Brooklyn pick; but every player they supposedly want to move are underwhelming players on awful contracts (Thompson, Smith, Shumpert). Best of luck with that, Cleveland....

They could probably move Shumpert and their own 1st to someone and get a role player back but if they expect to move Smith or Thompson I hope no team would be stupid enough to make that trade without receiving the Brooklyn 1st.

And if they want talent they're going to have to trade Crowder (whose trade value has likely dropped through no fault of his own) or Love.