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Where does Utah fit in the West?

NAOS said:
Trey Lyles' December:
2.3 ppg on 40% shooting. He didn't shoot a free throw. Should I go on?

His January:
4.1 ppg on 37% shooting. He missed the only free throw he attempted. Need more?

His February:
8 ppg on 47% shooting. Starting to figure out some offense here. Made 1 of his 3 average 3pt attempts per game. Still sucked the wang on D though, at this point.

During March and April he was grabbing fewer than 3 rebounds a game.

Lets look at Booker's December:
4.3 ppg on 34.7% shooting. Grabbing about 6 boards. Not taking free throws.

His January:
6.6 ppg on 48.6% shooting. 7 boards. This is near his peak for the year.



Are you guys astounded? Do either of these guys sound like a 3rd big on a team built for the playoffs?
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Look at me below agreeing with you (about there being upgrades on those other teams) and admitting to being wrong a bit, conceding, saying your opinion is valid.

fishonjazz said:
Guys to compare to ingles: (to be fair to the study im going off when a team is totally healthy) Gerald green (a decent improvement), tim hardaway jr (similar experience and help with winning games to ingles imo), james young (ingles might be the better and more experienced player), micheal kidd gilchrist (about the same as ingles? Should be better but really has not been), kyle singler (about the same as ingles), jamal crawford (the best of the bunch probably. The clipps are pretty deep at the wing), gerald henderson (a small upgrade), rodney stuckey (pretty decent upgrade), Stanley johnson (pretty good upgrade with less experience than ingles), lance stephenson (they have vince carter, tony allen, matt barnes and lance... pretty damn deep), corey brewer (a little bit of an upgrade.
Dallas is a hard one to say. They have d-will and devin harris listed as shooting guards which makes the wing depth look good (4th wing would be devin harris in that case) i think they are pointguards (4th wing would be justin anderson or jeremy evans who they have listed as a sf... ingles is better than both imo)
The only really significant upgrade to ingles of all those playoff rosters is jamaal crawford who shot 40% from the field and 34% from the field. (ingles was 43% and 39%) Stanley johnson (a rookie), lance stephenson, and rodney stuckey might be a decent upgrade. But most of those guys suck or never play or both.

As for 4th bigs (booker or lyles) we have: amare stoudamire (pretty good upgrade), kris humphries (i will take our guy), jonas jerebko (i like our guys better but can see jerebko being better), tyler hansboro (i like our guys better), nick collison (small upgrade to our guys), cole aldrich (with the exception of the one game against us, i like our guys better lol), ed davis (upgrade to book, but i would rather have lyles), sala mejri (i like our guys better), jordan hill (i like our guys better), aaron baynes (close but i take our guys), birdman (i would rather have book or lyles), terrence jones (clear upgrade.)

After having it laid out like that its clear that there is room for upgrades. However i believe that 90% of those guys dont tip the scales basically at all to the point of making the jazz much better than lyles, booker, and ingles do.
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Then I show some examples of where maybe my opinion is valid and justified
fishonjazz said:
hardaway, jr
james young
kidd gilchrist
kyle singler
gerald henderson
justin anderson
corey brewer
chris humphries
Tyler hansboro
cole aldrich
jordan hill
aaron baynes
birdman
..... Not a lot of guys moving the needle I also didn't take into account for chemistry issues, locker room issues (lance stephenson), salaries in comparison to joe ingles, etc.
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Then I give you some more credit
fishonjazz said:
Still I definately see some upgrades there so you have a good point. terrence jones, amare stoudamire, jamaal crawford, stanley johnson, lance stephenson, gerald green and a few more are upgrades to our guys.
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I see myself arguing my side as well as I can with tons of info to try to back it up and at the same time acknowledging that I'm not totally right and you are not totally wrong.
Also trying to point out that my study revealed that yes there are numerous upgrades to our 4th wing and 4th big. I just think that 4th wings and 4th bigs are not that important for a team with a normal amount of injuries in the grand scheme of things.

I think the jazz have much bigger fish to fry (trying to get our top end talent up to par with the other top teams) than worrying about who our 10-12 minute per game type guys are (I believe that if Burks, hood and hayward are healthy then joe ingles minutes are very low. Same thing if we have all our bigs healthy then I think our 4th big, whoever that is, doesn't play much)

That's it. I'm sorry you seem to take issue with so much of my opinion and feel like you need to nit pick and scrutinize and disect every single part of my opinion without ever budging an inch or acknowledging that what I'm saying makes even the tiniest bit of sense.

It's get frustrating for me.

Seriously this time. I'm done. This conversation is stressing me way too much and making me hate being on jazzfanz. I usually love jazz fans but not so much now.
 
Ok, brough. Leaving this behind is a good idea. I don't think I was "scrutinizing and dissecting every single part of your opinion," but that doesn't matter.
 
In the event that Boston wins the lottery, would you do this trade? Other pieces would have to be involved to make salaries work (and to sweeten the deal for whatever team feels they're being slighted), but this would be the core of the trade.

Boston acquires:

-DeMarcus Cousins
-Gordon Hayward

Sacramento acquires:

-Their choice of Derrick Favors/Rudy Gobert
-#17 pick in 2016
-#23 pick in 2016

Utah acquires:

-#1 pick in 2016 (Ben Simmons)
 
spycam1 said:
In the event that Boston wins the lottery, would you do this trade? Other pieces would have to be involved to make salaries work (and to sweeten the deal for whatever team feels they're being slighted), but this would be the core of the trade.

Boston acquires:

-DeMarcus Cousins
-Gordon Hayward

Sacramento acquires:

-Their choice of Derrick Favors/Rudy Gobert
-#17 pick in 2016
-#23 pick in 2016

Utah acquires:

-#1 pick in 2016 (Ben Simmons)
Click to expand...

Boston: yes in a heartbeat
Utah: maybe
Sac: hell naw.
 
NAOS said:
The offense could improve by a handful of points per game the very moment Lyndsey decides to actually build out the whole roster. Like, build it for an actual run in the playoffs.

Ingles, Johnson, Pleiss, Burke, and Booker are, with respect to offense, easily upgradable. Look at what Portland did to the middle and end of its roster in a single ****ing offseason. One. And then look what it's getting them right now.

Our offensive ineptitude this year points directly at Lyndsey, and indirectly at everybody else.
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So much this.

Great post.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
spycam1 said:
In the event that Boston wins the lottery, would you do this trade? Other pieces would have to be involved to make salaries work (and to sweeten the deal for whatever team feels they're being slighted), but this would be the core of the trade.

Boston acquires:

-DeMarcus Cousins
-Gordon Hayward

Sacramento acquires:

-Their choice of Derrick Favors/Rudy Gobert
-#17 pick in 2016
-#23 pick in 2016

Utah acquires:

-#1 pick in 2016 (Ben Simmons)
Click to expand...
Pretty good proposal.
I think Boston definitely does it.

For me that would be such a tough call. Because of lyles development I probably do it but it would set us back a bit.

I do think that a core of exum, burks, hood, lyles, gobert, simmons, mack, and a few decent free agents (we would have way lots of money to spend and wouldn't have to worry about money for a while.... And wouldn't have to worry about playing time too much sense we would definitely have some needs and minutes available after Hayward and favors depart) could be fighting for playoffs at the end of next year. Probably miss the playoffs again but come pretty close and if exum and simmons pan out then a core of all star exum, all star simmons, 6th man Burks, near all star hood, really good stretch 4 lyles, and all nba defensive team Gobert could really make some noise.

Huge risk but I would do it.
 
A few things:

I love when people say that "Favors or Haywood are no stars" then say that we need to trade them for stars. That isn't the way the NBA works.

The only thing you can trade for a star is a Number 1 draft pick in a GOOD year. Boston isn't trading a #1 pick for anything other than a marketable star.

Booker better be our CLEAR #4 big next year, either by a vastly improved Lyles, or an acquisition.

The point guard situation was a complete mess, and will likely continue to be a mess for the first part of next season. If things start out too slow with Exum, we can no longer dink around with the our third and fourth options. They must be consolidated into a solid vet, preferably better than Mack.

We need an instant offense guy that can step in and just fill up the basket. He will likely not play a lick of D, but he won't be guaranteed a regular rotation spot. Those guys can be had.

The Jazz need to make a clean break with picking up D League players this year. That ship has sailed.
 
framer said:
A few things:

I love when people say that "Favors or Haywood are no stars" then say that we need to trade them for stars. That isn't the way the NBA works.

The only thing you can trade for a star is a Number 1 draft pick in a GOOD year. Boston isn't trading a #1 pick for anything other than a marketable star.

Booker better be our CLEAR #4 big next year, either by a vastly improved Lyles, or an acquisition.

The point guard situation was a complete mess, and will likely continue to be a mess for the first part of next season. If things start out too slow with Exum, we can no longer dink around with the our third and fourth options. They must be consolidated into a solid vet, preferably better than Mack.

We need an instant offense guy that can step in and just fill up the basket. He will likely not play a lick of D, but he won't be guaranteed a regular rotation spot. Those guys can be had.

The Jazz need to make a clean break with picking up D League players this year. That ship has sailed.
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Maybe you missed the part about DeMarcus Cousins? Cousins in the right situation is every bit as good as any #1 pick in recent years, plus they'd be getting a top 5 SF in Hayward.

Cousins alone, if Boston can hone his talent, is better than Love who was traded for the #1 pick in a better draft.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
 
Jazz4ever said:
Boston: yes in a heartbeat
Utah: maybe
Sac: hell naw.
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Yeah, I think it's the right move for Boston and Utah. Sactown might need more convincing, though. But God knows Boston and Utah have plenty of picks and young pieces to sweeten the deal for them.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
 
DL talks a lot about timing and patience. He is patient but I worry that he hasn't any sense of good timing. We have officially hopped on the mediocrity treadmill. If we get off now we are likely to be back to mediocre before we can build a better roster. The time to be aggressive was yesterday. Honestly I don't care if we are buyers or sellers at this point, standing pat is not an option.
 
♪alt13 said:
DL talks a lot about timing and patience. He is patient but I worry that he hasn't any sense of good timing. We have officially hopped on the mediocrity treadmill. If we get off now we are likely to be back to mediocre before we can build a better roster. The time to be aggressive was yesterday. Honestly I don't care if we are buyers or sellers at this point, standing pat is not an option.
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sig worthy
 
framer said:
The only thing you can trade for a star is a Number 1 draft pick in a GOOD year.
Click to expand...


Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, two firsts and a second for Harden

Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, rights to Marc Gasol, two firsts for Pau Gasol

Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, and two firsts for Garnett

Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak and Jeff Green for Ray Allen
 
silesian said:
Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, two firsts and a second for Harden

Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, rights to Marc Gasol, two firsts for Pau Gasol

Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, and two firsts for Garnett

Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak and Jeff Green for Ray Allen
Click to expand...
Not to mention the deals for Deron Williams and Melo.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
 
silesian said:
Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, two firsts and a second for Harden

Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, rights to Marc Gasol, two firsts for Pau Gasol

Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, and two firsts for Garnett

Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak and Jeff Green for Ray Allen
Click to expand...

Every single one of those teams giving up a star got screwed making that trade. I still think prime Paul >>> Marc. Also, a trade like this hasn't happened in four years since the age of advanced stats.
 
framer said:
A few things:

I love when people say that "Favors or Haywood are no stars" then say that we need to trade them for stars. That isn't the way the NBA works.

The only thing you can trade for a star is a Number 1 draft pick in a GOOD year. Boston isn't trading a #1 pick for anything other than a marketable star.

Booker better be our CLEAR #4 big next year, either by a vastly improved Lyles, or an acquisition.

The point guard situation was a complete mess, and will likely continue to be a mess for the first part of next season. If things start out too slow with Exum, we can no longer dink around with the our third and fourth options. They must be consolidated into a solid vet, preferably better than Mack.

We need an instant offense guy that can step in and just fill up the basket. He will likely not play a lick of D, but he won't be guaranteed a regular rotation spot. Those guys can be had.

The Jazz need to make a clean break with picking up D League players this year. That ship has sailed.
Click to expand...


How much more solid a vet than Mack do you think it's going be easy to get ?
 
spycam1 said:
In the event that Boston wins the lottery, would you do this trade? Other pieces would have to be involved to make salaries work (and to sweeten the deal for whatever team feels they're being slighted), but this would be the core of the trade.

Boston acquires:

-DeMarcus Cousins
-Gordon Hayward

Sacramento acquires:

-Their choice of Derrick Favors/Rudy Gobert
-#17 pick in 2016
-#23 pick in 2016

Utah acquires:

-#1 pick in 2016 (Ben Simmons)
Click to expand...

Just looking at the last 18 years-worth of #1 picks:

Superstar:

KAT (likely)
Anthony Davis
Dwight Howard
LeBron James

Star:

Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Andrew Wiggins (likely)
Yao Ming

Decent:

Andrew Bogut
Kenyon Martin
Elton Brand

Bust:

Andrea Bargnani
Greg Oden
Anthony Bennett
Kwame Brown
Michael Olowokandi

That's tough. If you get a superstar it's obviously worth it. You could also live with the trade if it nets you one of the upper-echelon stars. Anything in the decent or bust category would be a complete disaster.
 
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