Roster Balancing Guys

[infection]

 

[gomretat]

I would absolutely trade Bogey for Nance. I think the addition of Gay improves us offensively enough that bringing in Nance for Bogey would give us greater rotation flexibility. I am a Nance fan and think he would be a great fit in the QS system and I also think Bogey is our most logical person to trade so maybe I am seeing it through rose colored glasses.

 

[jom2003]

Maybe... I think the idea/appeal with Nance is you have a small 5 for a few minutes a night that can shoot a little and playmake. I think Nance is a more disruptive defender but may have the same net effect of playing Gay at the 5. Paschall is the iffy shooting small ball 5... Nance is still an iffy shooter.

Given our current roster I wouldn't do Bogey for Nance. If FA had gone a different way I'd consider it.

Nance would be the perfect roster-balancing act. We have too much scoring and shooting but not enough defending and rebounding. Especially for rebounding you just won't survive playoffs with Royce being your second best rebounder on the floor.

 

[KqWIN]

I think it's more about the overall picture. We've had this teeter-totter over the past number of years where we were heavy on defense, light on offense, then swung hard to offense with limited defense. Now we're trying to correct without as large of a swing, and under-correcting while maintaining more of an offense. Moving away from Niang to Gay trends in the direction of overall better with a slight chipping away at spacing. Moving Bojan for Nance in that context is making a much larger jump in that direction for a guy who, while certainly different, is "on that side of the line." I would think moving Bojan for Nance moves you under a certain threshold offensively for doing what we do and having it look the same.

I'm fairly confident in our offense without Bogey. We've been better during the RS when someone is out, we played elite offense without Conley last year and without Bogey the year before. While Bogey and Nance are dramatically different players, I think it's a much needed shift. We have so much more firepower than those offense starved teams of years past. We've added even more with Gay and Paschall which only makes me more confident about this type of shift. If it turns out that we're too light on offense, we can lean on Gay, Clarkson, and Ingles to bring more of a punch.

 

[infection]

I'm fairly confident in our offense without Bogey. We've been better during the RS when someone is out, we played elite offense without Conley last year and without Bogey the year before. While Bogey and Nance are dramatically different players, I think it's a much needed shift. We have so much more firepower than those offense starved teams of years past. We've added even more with Gay and Paschall which only makes me more confident about this type of shift. If it turns out that we're too light on offense, we can lean on Gay, Clarkson, and Ingles to bring more of a punch.

It’s not that I don’t think we’d have enough offense, it’s that I think it would completely rework our offensive identity. If we were previously without Bojan, you had your guy who you yourself said fits great in his role as a spacer. Missing Conley gives more minutes to other spacers (Don, Ingles, Jordan). And I don’t read a ton into missing players because you can’t subtract out “next man up” phenomenon or players playing knowing they’re missing a guy. It has a positive effect in short doses but is unsustainable over the course of a season.

 

[NAOS]

6’8” dudes who can shoot teh lights out are easy to come by, I guess...

As more time goes by, my preference for trading JC instead of Bogey grows stronger

 

[KqWIN]

It’s not that I don’t think we’d have enough offense, it’s that I think it would completely rework our offensive identity. If we were previously without Bojan, you had your guy who you yourself said fits great in his role as a spacer. Missing Conley gives more minutes to other spacers (Don, Ingles, Jordan). And I don’t read a ton into missing players because you can’t subtract out “next man up” phenomenon or players playing knowing they’re missing a guy. It has a positive effect in short doses but is unsustainable over the course of a season.

A big part of my belief that we can succeed without someone out is that when no one is out, players aren't extending themselves with excess usage. When someone is out, that's when I think guys get the right amount of touches that keep them engaged and performing at their best. When we're healthy, guys are getting squeezed and there are negative effects on both ends.

IMO, your offensive identity is dictated by your main ballhandlers/scorers and I don't think that is disrupted if you bring in Nance. They are more comfortable with more, not less. If everyone is healthy someone is inevitably going to have to take a backseat and play in a low usage role. There's only so much usage, touches, shots ect to go around. We've only added guys who take up more.

I don't think your concerns are unwarranted....you definitely lose something when you go from Bogey to Nance. But to me, the defensive concerns are much more significant. If your offense tanks, worse case scenario you revert back to something that has worked in both the RS and the PO's.

 

[KqWIN]

6’8” dudes who can shoot teh lights out are easy to come by, I guess...

As more time goes by, my preference for trading JC instead of Bogey grows stronger

I would probably JC over Bogey too. Having both is a luxury but it comes at a cost that we can't afford. I'm tired of these massive defensive failures.

6'8 guys who are lights out shooters are definitely not easy to come by, it's a shame we let one walk for cheap.

 

[whatthe]

JC was nearly our 4th all-star last year. I agree he is tradable but he also gave us a special year. You better be dang sure that you are improving the team or it can be the dumbest trade ever.

 

[LogGrad98]

From a positional perspective I get what you're saying. They are all 4/5s...but Nance is a much different player imo. He's a great defender at both the 4 and 5...terrific energy and disruptor. He's a great utility guy who makes impacts on games without scoring...scoring and shooting are his limitation.

Paschall is kinda the exact opposite. He doesn't defend, doesn't rebound, and hasn't figured out how to play in a team concept. Both may be iffy shooters, but the one thing Paschall can do is get buckets. Nance is the player the does a million things besides scoring, Paschall is the guy where scoring is pretty much all he does.

Gay is a strong defender, but not at the same level or activity as Nance. No shame in that, I think Nance is one of the better defenders in the league at his position. He's just a different player. I know Gay has changed up his game as he's gotten older, but he's still so much different than Nance. He's a more prolific shooter and still gets to his spots in his mid range. Gay's scoring/shooting ability made me more comfortable with trading Bogey because he provides some offensive firepower even if he's not at the same level as Bogey.

I would still do Bogey for Nance. I can see how we might be feeling a little light on scoring if you're planning to play Royce+Nance+Gobert, but I think Gay is good insurance if you needed a bigger body who can also score. I'm wondering if the actual trade would be Ingles for Nance. I think Joe is a better player than Bogey...but it's clear that Quin has Bogey in much higher regard.

Of the 3 (Nance, Gay and Paschall), objectively Nance is the better overall player with more upside and better athleticism. At one time this would undoubtedly been Gay, but as he is aging he'll be declining as Mitchell is rising. Nance would be more on Mitchell's timeline, and has the chance to be a special player in the right system. I think he'd be a great fit for us. But with us already locking in Gay and Paschall I don't see any way we make a move for Nance no matter how much sense it makes.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

From a positional perspective I get what you're saying. They are all 4/5s...but Nance is a much different player imo. He's a great defender at both the 4 and 5...terrific energy and disruptor. He's a great utility guy who makes impacts on games without scoring...scoring and shooting are his limitation.

Paschall is kinda the exact opposite. He doesn't defend, doesn't rebound, and hasn't figured out how to play in a team concept. Both may be iffy shooters, but the one thing Paschall can do is get buckets. Nance is the player the does a million things besides scoring, Paschall is the guy where scoring is pretty much all he does.

Gay is a strong defender, but not at the same level or activity as Nance. No shame in that, I think Nance is one of the better defenders in the league at his position. He's just a different player. I know Gay has changed up his game as he's gotten older, but he's still so much different than Nance. He's a more prolific shooter and still gets to his spots in his mid range. Gay's scoring/shooting ability made me more comfortable with trading Bogey because he provides some offensive firepower even if he's not at the same level as Bogey.

I would still do Bogey for Nance. I can see how we might be feeling a little light on scoring if you're planning to play Royce+Nance+Gobert, but I think Gay is good insurance if you needed a bigger body who can also score. I'm wondering if the actual trade would be Ingles for Nance. I think Joe is a better player than Bogey...but it's clear that Quin has Bogey in much higher regard.

I think Gay gives you enough of the defensive stuff at the 4/5 to supplement Bogey's deficiencies and use him in closing lineups if you need more defense and rebounding. I think Nance is a better defender but I am not sure by how wide a margin since he's been with such a garbage team. I just don't see it as a big need anymore.

Paschall is all theoretical... I don't know if he is anything... I am not banking on him being something but who knows... he's a pile of stuff in a thiccc semi-athletic body.

I have concerns on Nance... shooting is one... hes a career 33% guy from three and is a 69% (nice) FT shooter. His main benefit is as a small ball 5 and I think Rudy could really excel there for us if we gave him a shot. As many have noted it isn't likely that Quin goes that route so... does Nance as a 4 next to Gobert do more for you than Gay or Bojan? I just don't think so... for what he adds to the table he is taking off a whole lot of shooting. He is the type of shooter that gets ignored imo and is more interesting as a roll man.

If I thought we'd get wild with **** and really try some stuff then adding Nance would be a good piece... I think we dip our toes in the small ball 5 waters ever so subtlety and think Bojan is definitely a better 4 man than Nance. At the 4 I also prefer Gay's skillset.

As mentioned before I think our need on defense at the moment is more a guy that plays against perimeter guys that quicker and skew more towards guards on the positional spectrum.

I also think Bojan played pretty damn well in the playoffs and to finish the season and am looking forward to a full year of healthy Bojan. I think more can be asked of him on defense since we have a higher quality guy backing him up. He's capable of decent defense and focus at times... not that he gets to an amazing level but he can kick it up a notch every few games or so.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

6’8” dudes who can shoot teh lights out are easy to come by, I guess...

As more time goes by, my preference for trading JC instead of Bogey grows stronger

I love JC... the issue is the playoffs. His On/Off stuff is so damn ugly. Its not totally fair since he plays with bench guys but he also plays against bench guys. He's a guy that should have minutes lowered in the playoffs but due to injuries his minutes really haven't changed much. I just think his shoot first, second, and third mentality hurts him in the playoffs when scouting reports are more detailed and they are ready for it. If he could play more within the team concept I might prefer him to Bogey.

If you are trading offense for defense I think JC is the clear preference.

I am also truly nervous about what we get from Joe this year. After the Olympics and headed into what most think is his final season... is he fat and happy? Does he stay 100% locked in? If not then JC becomes a little more important.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

JC was nearly our 4th all-star last year. I agree he is tradable but he also gave us a special year. You better be dang sure that you are improving the team or it can be the dumbest trade ever.

I love JC... no one was talking seriously about him as an all-star.

 

[KqWIN]

I think Gay gives you enough of the defensive stuff at the 4/5 to supplement Bogey's deficiencies and use him in closing lineups if you need more defense and rebounding. I think Nance is a better defender but I am not sure by how wide a margin since he's been with such a garbage team. I just don't see it as a big need anymore.

Paschall is all theoretical... I don't know if he is anything... I am not banking on him being something but who knows... he's a pile of stuff in a thiccc semi-athletic body.

I have concerns on Nance... shooting is one... hes a career 33% guy from three and is a 69% (nice) FT shooter. His main benefit is as a small ball 5 and I think Rudy could really excel there for us if we gave him a shot. As many have noted it isn't likely that Quin goes that route so... does Nance as a 4 next to Gobert do more for you than Gay or Bojan? I just don't think so... for what he adds to the table he is taking off a whole lot of shooting. He is the type of shooter that gets ignored imo and is more interesting as a roll man.

If I thought we'd get wild with **** and really try some stuff then adding Nance would be a good piece... I think we dip our toes in the small ball 5 waters ever so subtlety and think Bojan is definitely a better 4 man than Nance. At the 4 I also prefer Gay's skillset.

As mentioned before I think our need on defense at the moment is more a guy that plays against perimeter guys that quicker and skew more towards guards on the positional spectrum.

I also think Bojan played pretty damn well in the playoffs and to finish the season and am looking forward to a full year of healthy Bojan. I think more can be asked of him on defense since we have a higher quality guy backing him up. He's capable of decent defense and focus at times... not that he gets to an amazing level but he can kick it up a notch every few games or so.

I don't think Gay and Nance are particularly close as defenders, especially now that Gay 35. Nance and Bogey are both good players, but to me Gay is more of a Bogey equivalent than a Nance equivalent. We also have so many guys that provide what Bogey does. We don't have anyone that provides what Nance does and it's badly needed. Gay is an improvement in those areas...but not enough.

To me, a Nance type defender is more important and pretty much a necessity given the rest of our personnel. For me off ball defenders are most important and especially important against the elite guards. There's not a single player in the league that can handle guys one on one. The only way to slow these guys down is through strong rotation and defensive structure. I thought the LAC series was a great example of this. They had several elite, all defense type perimeter defenders and were still sending instant double teams at Mitchell.

On top of that, we are committed to Mitchell and Conley. It makes it more difficult to find a spot on the floor for a quicker defender, we're playing at a major size disadvantage at two positions, we have two players who can't/won't help in rotation, and the defense also has two easy targets to attack in switches. It's obviously a plus to have defenders who can provide some resistance on the ball, but the reality is that we're playing with two who can't so we need more size and defensive range behind them.

It doesn't have to be Bogey, but we need that low usage player who can contribute in other ways. Adding Gay makes me feel even more strongly that we need to move one of the scorers because Gay is a scorer who can pick up that slack (on top of Whiteside, Paschall, and Butler). I feel like one way or another, someone is going to have to significantly drop their usage. There's not enough for everyone to go around. Might as well get a guy who's comfortable and can contribute in that role.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think Gay and Nance are particularly close as defenders, especially now that Gay 35. Nance and Bogey are both good players, but to me Gay is more of a Bogey equivalent than a Nance equivalent. We also have so many guys that provide what Bogey does. We don't have anyone that provides what Nance does and it's badly needed. Gay is an improvement in those areas...but not enough.

To me, a Nance type defender is more important and pretty much a necessity given the rest of our personnel. For me off ball defenders are most important and especially important against the elite guards. There's not a single player in the league that can handle guys one on one. The only way to slow these guys down is through strong rotation and defensive structure. I thought the LAC series was a great example of this. They had several elite, all defense type perimeter defenders and were still sending instant double teams at Mitchell.

On top of that, we are committed to Mitchell and Conley. It makes it more difficult to find a spot on the floor for a quicker defender, we're playing at a major size disadvantage at two positions, we have two players who can't/won't help in rotation, and the defense also has two easy targets to attack in switches. It's obviously a plus to have defenders who can provide some resistance on the ball, but the reality is that we're playing with two who can't so we need more size and defensive range behind them.

It doesn't have to be Bogey, but we need that low usage player who can contribute in other ways. Adding Gay makes me feel even more strongly that we need to move one of the scorers because Gay is a scorer who can pick up that slack (on top of Whiteside, Paschall, and Butler). I feel like one way or another, someone is going to have to significantly drop their usage. There's not enough for everyone to go around. Might as well get a guy who's comfortable and can contribute in that role.

I like Nance... I just have my concerns... he's been on a good functional team for about 2 months of his whole career and the rest are all losers... not his fault and also could be upside in disguise. I'm just not sure the net difference between him and Gay is much all that much. Outside of just age there isn't much to suggest Gay's defense is getting worse. Nance's 3 point shot is trending the right way but I do not suspect it gets much better than it is currently given his age. He's likely to be a averagish low volume shooter. Swapping Bojan's good volume great shooting is going to hurt.

I get that Gay can sub in for some of Bojan's usage. I see how you see him as more similar to Bojan as a scorer... but I think he shares some similarities to Nance with the other stuff. I don't feel a need to litigate it either way because it ain't happening imo.

I think JC is a better pivot point based on playoff performance and there are enough of those minutes to make a difference. May not be as many good trade available there... who knows.

 

[KqWIN]

I like Nance... I just have my concerns... he's been on a good functional team for about 2 months of his whole career and the rest are all losers... not his fault and also could be upside in disguise. I'm just not sure the net difference between him and Gay is much all that much. Outside of just age there isn't much to suggest Gay's defense is getting worse. Nance's 3 point shot is trending the right way but I do not suspect it gets much better than it is currently given his age. He's likely to be a averagish low volume shooter. Swapping Bojan's good volume great shooting is going to hurt.

I get that Gay can sub in for some of Bojan's usage. I see how you see him as more similar to Bojan as a scorer... but I think he shares some similarities to Nance with the other stuff. I don't feel a need to litigate it either way because it ain't happening imo.

I think JC is a better pivot point based on playoff performance and there are enough of those minutes to make a difference. May not be as many good trade available there... who knows.

I don't think your concerns with Nance are unreasonable and losing Bogey's shooting/scoring will hurt, but what Nance provides is of much greater need and we have so many other players (Gay included) that do what Bogey does. Our roster is extremely tilted towards scoring and we don't have enough utility. Gay has more utility than the guys he replaced, but he's still more of a Bogey equivalent than a Nance type to me.

 

[Avery]

I get why you'd want to sell high on JC, but we have no proven scorers on the bench other than himself.

I'd much prefer running it back with a better supporting cast off the bench (hopefully). Only way I'd exit him out is if you're getting a wing to take the place of Royce and pushing him to the bench and I don't see that happening.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think your concerns with Nance are unreasonable and losing Bogey's shooting/scoring will hurt, but what Nance provides is of much greater need and we have so many other players (Gay included) that do what Bogey does. Our roster is extremely tilted towards scoring and we don't have enough utility. Gay has more utility than the guys he replaced, but he's still more of a Bogey equivalent than a Nance type to me.

That’s fair.

The trade can’t be straight up because of salary but if they did some maneuvering and were able to reduce some salary by making the swap… then we might have some flexibility to do other things. It would likely have to be a three for 1 deal because I’m not touching Osman’s contract. IF we did it I’d hope to sneak some draft compensation as well. Not a first but I think Bojan has more value than Nance imo.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I get why you'd want to sell high on JC, but we have no proven scorers on the bench other than himself.

I'd much prefer running it back with a better supporting cast off the bench (hopefully). Only way I'd exit him out is if you're getting a wing to take the place of Royce and pushing him to the bench and I don't see that happening.

Rudy Gay and Joe Ingles beg to differ on your first point. JC is in a different class of scorer though… I get it.

 

[infection]

The most likely scenario is that we ask Bojan to play defense like he did in game 2. If he could approximate anything like that, it would actually make him an almost unstoppable player. It would catapult him into another echelon and be like that T-Rex with the arm grabbers.



In the same way they probably sold Whiteside on being in a defensive system tailored for a guy like him, they could maybe get in Bojan's ear that if he were an impact player on defense the whole season that you look at the accolades Clarkson and Conley got this past year by contributing to a winning team, that perhaps he could even be in the discussion for accolades of his own. Not sure what it would be, but if he were dropping 20/night like he did two years before (hard to do, but this is a pitch) and he's playing tough D, maybe he gets a coach's selection.