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Alec Baldwin shoots and kills one, injures another.

TheGoldStandard said:
Plenty of cases where company officers have been charged criminally for implementing unsafe practices that harm or kill employees, both for manslaughter, and negligent homicide. Baldwin was the producer in charge of the set.
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I understand, but in this case, I don't point any fingers at the producer. If he hired subs, he had confidence in their ability. Apparently, their ability had someone killed.

To me, it's not Baldwin's fault. It's the POS that loaded the gun with live ammunition on set and didn't tell Baldwin.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
It could be your fault if you hired an incompetent person and knew they were reckless with lack of due care, although criminal liability would be harder to stick, but still possible depending on the state. Which is why cutting corners and hiring an uninsured contractor can bite you in the butt if they or someone else gets injured while they are performing work.

I doubt Baldwin will be charged criminally, even though you could argue he was reckless or did not exercise due caution, which in New Mexico can be enough for involuntary manslaughter and all the stories coming from crewmembers (which may or may not be accurate) make it seem like it was a ********, and Baldwin was the producer in charge. I do believe the people target shooting and leaving bullets in the are more to blame. But questions arise. Did Baldwin know they were target shooting with that gun? Did the armorer? And with that knowledge did he pull the trigger without checking it? It would be up to the prosecutor or grand jury to decide if charges are brought and against who.

I actually like Baldwin as an actor, and have no animosity towards him. Even if he was reckless to the point of legal cupability, I still feel bad for they guy either way. Ultimately, he pulled the trigger which killed a mother with young kids. I don't know how I could handle that, even if you want to call it an "accident".

More than likely Baldwin will be sued in civil court, and the film insurance will settle with the family.
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Good post.
 
Archie Moses said:
The gun should have been "cold."

That's my whole point.
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So I get this was a movie set. But let's say you and some of your friends go out for some target practice. Afterwards you all go back to wherever and as a group you all start cleaning the guns. Your good buddy hands you a Glock and says it's clear, go ahead and tear it down for cleaning. Now Glocks require that you pull the trigger to release the slide for disassembly for basic cleaning. So, do you then point the muzzle carelessly, possibly in the direction of a person and pull the trigger because your good buddy told you it was ready to go? The answer is NO! After being handed the gun you should personally verify that the chamber is clear. Then you should point the gun in a safe direction while pulling the trigger, even though you just seconds earlier verified that it was clear of any live ammo. If you failed to do either of those things and you killed or injured another person you would be negligent. There are no two ways about that. Glocks are notorious for causing injury, usually to the owner, during disassembly because the owner fails to follow these basic rules.

Guns are not this thing that just exists and we throw our hands in the air when they are misused and say "Oh well, what can be done? We made assumptions or took things on faith that turned out to be false and people died. Not anyone's fault, really." There are basic guidelines that need to be adhered to avoid "accidents" (aka negligence). Failure to follow those basic guidelines that results in injury or death should be a criminal charge in and of itself in my non-humble opinion, on top of whatever other charges are applicable.
 
Archie Moses said:
I understand, but in this case, I don't point any fingers at the producer. If he hired subs, he had confidence in their ability. Apparently, their ability had someone killed.

To me, it's not Baldwin's fault. It's the POS that loaded the gun with live ammunition on set and didn't tell Baldwin.
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I'd be more concerned about the armorer and assistant producer, both of which apparently had poor reputations for safety in the industry.

Nic Cage demanded she be fired on her only other film due to safety issues.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
It could be your fault if you hired an incompetent person and knew they were reckless with lack of due care, although criminal liability would be harder to stick, but still possible depending on the state. Which is why cutting corners and hiring an uninsured contractor can bite you in the butt if they or someone else gets injured while they are performing work.

I doubt Baldwin will be charged criminally, even though you could argue he was reckless or did not exercise due caution, which in New Mexico can be enough for involuntary manslaughter and all the stories coming from crewmembers (which may or may not be accurate) make it seem like it was a ********, and Baldwin was the producer in charge. I do believe the people target shooting and leaving bullets in the are more to blame. But questions arise. Did Baldwin know they were target shooting with that gun? Did the armorer? And with that knowledge did he pull the trigger without checking it? It would be up to the prosecutor or grand jury to decide if charges are brought and against who.

I actually like Baldwin as an actor, and have no animosity towards him. Even if he was reckless to the point of legal cupability, I still feel bad for they guy either way. Ultimately, he pulled the trigger which killed a mother with young kids. I don't know how I could handle that, even if you want to call it an "accident".

More than likely Baldwin will be sued in civil court, and the film insurance will settle with the family.
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Even if you want to call it an “accident”

What else would you call it? Intentional? Murder?


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Gameface said:
So I get this was a movie set. But let's say you and some of your friends go out for some target practice. Afterwards you all go back to wherever and as a group you all start cleaning the guns. Your good buddy hands you a Glock and says it's clear, go ahead and tear it down for cleaning. Now Glocks require that you pull the trigger to release the slide for disassembly for basic cleaning. So, do you then point the muzzle carelessly, possibly in the direction of a person and pull the trigger because your good buddy told you it was ready to go? The answer is NO! After being handed the gun you should personally verify that the chamber is clear. Then you should point the gun in a safe direction while pulling the trigger, even though you just seconds earlier verified that it was clear of any live ammo. If you failed to do either of those things and you killed or injured another person you would be negligent. There are no two ways about that. Glocks are notorious for causing injury, usually to the owner, during disassembly because the owner fails to follow these basic rules.

Guns are not this thing that just exists and we throw our hands in the air when they are misused and say "Oh well, what can be done? We made assumptions or took things on faith that turned out to be false and people died. Not anyone's fault, really." There are basic guidelines that need to be adhered to avoid "accidents" (aka negligence). Failure to follow those basic guidelines that results in injury or death should be a criminal charge in and of itself in my non-humble opinion, on top of whatever other charges are applicable.
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This example doesnt work because of your first sentence.




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fishonjazz said:
This example doesnt work because of your first sentence.




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It does though.

A movie set has ADDITIONAL protocols in place due to the special circumstances, not less. It just means that there are even more steps that must be taken to ensure safety because some of the basic rules of firearm safety are going to be violated.

One of those additional steps is for the actor to check that the gun is "cold" after first the armorer does (did not happen allegedly) then a director or assistant director checks (happened, but the **** heel was wrong). So in my example a person is handed a gun they are told is "cold" and my example is simply to illustrate the individual responsibility of the individual in possession of the gun to make sure that their actions are safe. Alec Baldwin had that obligation and he failed to meet it. I'm not putting this all on his shoulders, but I'm also not willing to absolve him.

Movie sets are not an excuse to be lax in regard to gun safety, they are a place where additional attention to gun safety and specialized standards are required.
 
Gameface said:
It does though.

A movie set has ADDITIONAL protocols in place due to the special circumstances, not less. It just means that there are even more steps that must be taken to ensure safety because some of the basic rules of firearm safety are going to be violated.

One of those additional steps is for the actor to check that the gun is "cold" after first the armorer does (did not happen allegedly) then a director or assistant director checks (happened, but the **** heel was wrong). So in my example a person is handed a gun they are told is "cold" and my example is simply to illustrate the individual responsibility of the individual in possession of the gun to make sure that their actions are safe. Alec Baldwin had that obligation and he failed to meet it. I'm not putting this all on his shoulders, but I'm also not willing to absolve him.

Movie sets are not an excuse to be lax in regard to gun safety, they are a place where additional attention to gun safety and specialized standards are required.
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Also, like another poster mentioned, usually they have plexiglass set up around the camera person and anybody else near the shoot. Another thing that wasn’t done.

There’s a lot of blame to go around. I don’t know why the producer and most experienced actor doesn’t share any of it according to some, that’s just a logic I can’t get behind.
 
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RandyForRubio said:
Yes, it should have been.

Proper protocol on movie/tv sets is that every single person who handles a gun checks it. Nobody did their job, and that includes Baldwin. He ain’t blameless.
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Where can I read up on proper protocol that trickles down to the actor?

To me, he's the last person to blame. He's an, well, actor.

Who gives an actor a loaded gun?!

It doesn't happen often.
 
fishonjazz said:
Even if you want to call it an “accident”

What else would you call it? Intentional? Murder?


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
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I'd call it negligence man slaughter on the person that loaded the gun, put it on set and didn't warn the actor shooting the gun it's a gun. Haha

To me, it's as simple as that.

Sucks to be Baldwin right now. I can't imagine. Obviously, sucks to be the family of the cinematographer too.
 
fishonjazz said:
Even if you want to call it an “accident”

What else would you call it? Intentional? Murder?


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...

fishonjazz said:
Even if you want to call it an “accident”

What else would you call it? Intentional? Murder?


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
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Reckless disregard. I'm not saying that applies to Baldwin actually pulling the trigger depending on facts that come out, but based on what I've read, I would say it seems to be so reckless it was similar to a drunk driver killing someone, the difference is many may be culpable (crew bring live ammo on set and using in set guns, armorer for allowing it, Baldwin for potentially hiring incompetent safety people when the industry knew these people were bad news... I would not call that an accident. It is reckless disregard that led to a tragedy.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
Reckless disregard. I'm not saying that applies to Baldwin actually pulling the trigger depending on facts that come out, but based on what I've read, I would say it seems to be so reckless it was similar to a drunk driver killing someone, the difference is many may be culpable (crew bring live ammo on set and using in set guns, armorer for allowing it, Baldwin for potentially hiring incompetent safety people when the industry knew these people were bad news... I would not call that an accident. It is reckless disregard that led to a tragedy.
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To me, this is a poor analogy.

Comparing this to drunk driving is insane in my mind regardless if Baldwin hired her.

It's like blaming any employer for the actions of their employees. So dumb and so finger happy to point the blame.

The fact of the matter is simple. Baldwin is an actor and regardless if he was acting or not, the prop should have never have been lethal. 100%.

It's on the Amorer - 100%.

I don't care if Baldwin hired her. He hired her in hopes this **** wouldn't happen. He's a ****ing actor. Lol


Society is so lame on the fingers it points.

Mac Miller's drug dealers are being blamed for selling, well, drugs that killed someone. Don't get me wrong, they should be charged, but people acting like the guy was killed by these guys are delusional.

There's always a finger to point.

Baldwin isn't my favorite and bugs me if I'm being honest. The last person in the world anyone should expect to follow gun safety protocols is an actor or actress.

So dumb how people are blaming Baldwin. What self righteous hacks.
 
Everyone handling the gun has a responsibility to validate it is safe and to follow basic gun safety rules regardless of who else was responsible or handling the gun. @Gameface was spot on in his analysis.
 
This is no time for politics. Thoughts and prayers…

Or alternatively, recognize that the entertainment industry is complicit in promoting gun culture
 
Archie Moses said:
To me, this is a poor analogy.

Comparing this to drunk driving is insane in my mind regardless if Baldwin hired her.

It's like blaming any employer for the actions of their employees. So dumb and so finger happy to point the blame.

The fact of the matter is simple. Baldwin is an actor and regardless if he was acting or not, the prop should have never have been lethal. 100%.

It's on the Amorer - 100%.

I don't care if Baldwin hired her. He hired her in hopes this **** wouldn't happen. He's a ****ing actor. Lol


Society is so lame on the fingers it points.

Mac Miller's drug dealers are being blamed for selling, well, drugs that killed someone. Don't get me wrong, they should be charged, but people acting like the guy was killed by these guys are delusional.

There's always a finger to point.

Baldwin isn't my favorite and bugs me if I'm being honest. The last person in the world anyone should expect to follow gun safety protocols is an actor or actress.

So dumb how people are blaming Baldwin. What self righteous hacks.
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Baldwin was a producer with control of the set. If he knew of past issues with safety people he hired, he could be culpable. I don't think he'd get charged for solely pulling the trigger/not checking the chamber. It is facts regarding the other stuff that will ultimately determine culpability, be it civil or criminal.

And again, I am not saying Baldwin is to blame without all the facts, but as he controlled the set, he could be criminally liable based on facts and circumstances.
 
Archie Moses said:
To me, this is a poor analogy.

Comparing this to drunk driving is insane in my mind regardless if Baldwin hired her.

It's like blaming any employer for the actions of their employees. So dumb and so finger happy to point the blame.

The fact of the matter is simple. Baldwin is an actor and regardless if he was acting or not, the prop should have never have been lethal. 100%.

It's on the Amorer - 100%.

I don't care if Baldwin hired her. He hired her in hopes this **** wouldn't happen. He's a ****ing actor. Lol


Society is so lame on the fingers it points.

Mac Miller's drug dealers are being blamed for selling, well, drugs that killed someone. Don't get me wrong, they should be charged, but people acting like the guy was killed by these guys are delusional.

There's always a finger to point.

Baldwin isn't my favorite and bugs me if I'm being honest. The last person in the world anyone should expect to follow gun safety protocols is an actor or actress.

So dumb how people are blaming Baldwin. What self righteous hacks.
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It’s like you’re just ignoring everything that has been said about how this typically works.
 
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