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Game Thread Dec 10, 2022 07:00PM MT: Jazz at Nuggets

Added to Calendar: 12-10-22

fishonjazz said:
You must remember that even when i was knocking his athleticism i was advocating for him to play more minutes and talking about how awesome he has been for us.

Its a travesty that in a game when we are short handed and playing against a huge center and KO and vando are in foul trouble and kessler is playing great and the team was playing great while he was in (highest plus/minus on the team) that he only gets 22 minutes. Very bad decision by hardy if we were trying to win that game.


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hardy don't want to play his lookalike its like yelling at yourself cmon
 
fishonjazz said:
Ya i dont think he was trying to lose. I think he is just harder on kessler than pretty much anyone else on the team. I think that kessler has played good enough for long enough that he should get rewarded. Especially last night. (Due to the game situations i brought up)
I think hardy not playing him more last night was a bad coaching decision but i dont think it was intentionally bad.


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“Harder on Kessler” - possibly I guess, but he hasn’t outright held him out of games like he has with THT and NAW.
 
HermanG said:
I guess its just classic "rookie treatment" that some coaches give them. Rookies are the furthest away from their true ceiling and they usually accept the coach pushing them hard.. at least better than established vets do.
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Yeah, I think so. I mean what do people expect to see? Hardy started him for Pete’s sakes, which is pretty exceptional for a non lottery pick rookie IMO.
 
Release the Kraken said:
He started the Minny game and had 22 good minutes in this one. Seems reasonable to me. Maybe people forget how many minutes Gobert was getting his first year in the league.
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22 isnt enough when he is the best and only big option going against a giant in a game when the other options are in foul trouble and he is outplaying them.

If you just say a rookie got the start and 22 minutes then it sounds great and reasonable.
When you add in the context of a young rebuilding team and the rookie being your best option and playing great and all the other context i listed, thats when it turns into a poor coaching decision. If we were in fact trying to win the game that is.


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fishonjazz said:
22 isnt enough when he is the best and only big option going against a giant in a game when the other options are in foul trouble and he is outplaying them.

If you just say a rookie got the start and 22 minutes then it sounds great and reasonable.
When you add in the context of a young rebuilding team and the rookie being your best option and playing great and all the other context i listed, thats when it turns into a poor coaching decision. If we were in fact trying to win the game that is.


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Walker is getting absolutely pummeled by starting level centers in his individual matchups. I would say Hardy is doing an excellent coaching putting Walker in positions to succeed.

The Jazz aren't a young rebuilding team. They are a middle aged team trying to win. That could change, but that's who they are right now.

Kelly Olynyk is still the better player and gives us a better chance to win most nights by putting the other team in difficult matchups where we space the floor and JV offers someone who can be defensively versatile on a team that lacks wing defenders. The Jazz win games through offense by spreading the other team out, not with Walker playing defense. His defense is great and helps the Jazz win, but it's better served against backups currently and he's able to get plenty of development that way.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Walker is getting absolutely pummeled by starting level centers in his individual matchups. I would say Hardy is doing an excellent coaching putting Walker in positions to succeed.

The Jazz aren't a young rebuilding team. They are a middle aged team trying to win. That could change, but that's who they are right now.

Kelly Olynyk is still the better player and gives us a better chance to win most nights by putting the other team in difficult matchups where we space the floor and JV offers someone who can be defensively versatile on a team that lacks wing defenders. The Jazz win games through offense by spreading the other team out, not with Walker playing defense. His defense is great and helps the Jazz win, but it's better served against backups currently and he's able to get plenty of development that way.
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Lol.
Zion disagrees with this post. Jonas V too


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Walker is getting pummeled by the opponents and we are better off with him on the bench (or not even playing ) as long as we have the great olynyk


Total list of rookies in NBA history who have averaged 17+ points, 16+ rebounds and 5+ blocks per 100 possessions:

David Robinson
Walker Kessler


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I mean Kessler is basically our second best player already (Lauri is our best) if you are talking about production and consistency.

If you want to win then you play your best players more. I domt care who the opponent is, i dont care who else is on the floor. Kessler has played better than everyone not named Lauri and should be on the court more.

Last night was probably Olynyks season low in minutes (16) and we just so happen to have our best game of the season and won the game primarily by defense and rebounding (we outrebounded them by 16!)
Kessler had 16 rebounds (6 offensive) and vando had 14 (8 offensive)

Maybe playing those two together more (and playing olynyk less) can actually work. Maybe we can win by outworking teams and defending teams and crashing the glass. Having conley/NAW, clarkson/beasely, and Lauri/KO out there with vando and kessler would provide enough spacing. Vando is a ball mover and a good cutter and kessler can set good screens and rim run and finish. Then of course we would be much better defensively. Those things have value too.

All I know is that kessler has played himself into the second best player on the team imo. Dude knows his role and plays it perfectly. I would love to see if he can handle more.

I just looked up his stats. He is shooting a ridiculous 73% from the field! For context, that is a way better field goal % than rudy gobert ever had in any of his 10 seasons.

Kessler is averaging 4 blocks per 36. Goberts best season for blocks per 36 is 3.4.

Dude is killing it yet cant seem to ever get more than 22-23 minutes in a game. (Averages 16.9). He almost never gets in foul trouble despite his amazing defense. I remember someone posted a stat a few games ago that we are the best defense in the league when kessler is on the court. Thats crazy. Many of his stats are crazy. He is basically already prime rudy gobert as a rookie.
 
Kessler is paid 2.6 million, 2.8 million, 2.9 million and 4.8 million and we control his rights for like the next 7 years iirc. He is 21 years old.

He might be the most valuable asset we got in the trades we made. Obviously we have a ton of picks that might be better but kessler is right at the top currently. Lauri is the better player for sure but when you account for age and contract kessler might be the better asset


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^ He has played great, but his level of effectiveness is nothing close to the same level of the Finnishers job or a guards job on this team. He is a rook and getting minutes on a roster where other rooks who were as NBA ready as him can't get garbage time. He is doing well, but he is not going to equate to more wins playing more.
 
Eddie Zero said:
less is more? I think his legs would not sustain it, maybe they would, but rook bigs don't fair well on a full grind for 82+
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So do you have some stats that show that his play declines as the game goes on?


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fishonjazz said:
So do you have some stats that show that his play declines as the game goes on?


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not what I meant. How many minutes does he get if thos roster had a legit 5? maybe 10? He is being thrown in the fire and doing fine in a very limitted role. His defense is why he is playing. That takes a lot of effort and I don't see him being some freak athlete that can just play 40 min a game at high intensity for that stretch without being unavailable on back to backs and then they lose because he didn't play at all with no viable replacement. He can play 5 more max without burnout
 
fishonjazz said:
I mean Kessler is basically our second best player already (Lauri is our best) if you are talking about production and consistency.

If you want to win then you play your best players more. I domt care who the opponent is, i dont care who else is on the floor. Kessler has played better than everyone not named Lauri and should be on the court more.

Last night was probably Olynyks season low in minutes (16) and we just so happen to have our best game of the season and won the game primarily by defense and rebounding (we outrebounded them by 16!)
Kessler had 16 rebounds (6 offensive) and vando had 14 (8 offensive)

Maybe playing those two together more (and playing olynyk less) can actually work. Maybe we can win by outworking teams and defending teams and crashing the glass. Having conley/NAW, clarkson/beasely, and Lauri/KO out there with vando and kessler would provide enough spacing. Vando is a ball mover and a good cutter and kessler can set good screens and rim run and finish. Then of course we would be much better defensively. Those things have value too.

All I know is that kessler has played himself into the second best player on the team imo. Dude knows his role and plays it perfectly. I would love to see if he can handle more.

I just looked up his stats. He is shooting a ridiculous 73% from the field! For context, that is a way better field goal % than rudy gobert ever had in any of his 10 seasons.

Kessler is averaging 4 blocks per 36. Goberts best season for blocks per 36 is 3.4.

Dude is killing it yet cant seem to ever get more than 22-23 minutes in a game. (Averages 16.9). He almost never gets in foul trouble despite his amazing defense. I remember someone posted a stat a few games ago that we are the best defense in the league when kessler is on the court. Thats crazy. Many of his stats are crazy. He is basically already prime rudy gobert as a rookie.
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Funny fact. Vando and Kessler still havent played together at all. They sub for each other... every... single.. time.

Its crazy Hardy hasnt even tried them on the court at the same time. I feel like there must be a more valid reason other than "they dont fit".

But as long as that continues, we are at a stalemate with their minutes...
 
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