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I dont think DA will trade Lauri or Collins.
  • Lauri might be at peak value but I'm not sold that DA wants to reboot this rebuild based on this year going poorly, especially since Key and Hendricks are showing promise. He will stay on the course.
  • For Collins, there are so many reasons why he wont be traded its not even funny that some of you are thinking about it. He is at bottom value so eating 1 year of his deal and letting him recover his stats (which he is doing) means his trade value is definitely on the rise. If there is any MO to DA its him being "value conscious" in his moves. Collins also fits the window age-wise and I'm calling serious scapegoat BS on anyone thinking he is even a top 5 root cause for our issues this year.
There are other much more likely trade candidates to be discussed, like KO, JC, THT and even Fontecchio (as well as he has played lately, he isnt cornerstone material and could definitely bring in some value).
 
Like if you compare the prospect of trading Collins with the prospect of trading Fontecchio you can say:
  • Neither one is a cornerstone piece, so both are equally possible trade fodder
  • Collins is almost 2 full years younger than Fontecchio, so keeping him makes more sense age-wise
  • Collins makes 25M per year for this + 2 more years, while Fontecchio makes 3M this year and is RFA next summer, so Tech has MUCH more tradable contract
  • Both are on the way of the rookies minutes
I get that people project what they want to see happen, but realistically trading Tech makes more sense. Dont know where Hardy would stand on this.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Honestly, what do you think of a team that starts:

Ja
Smart
Bane
Collins
JJJ

Then the main pieces off the bench are Santi Aldama, Simone Fontecchio, and David Roddy?

Even if Collins is great for them, that team would still be lucky as hell to make it out of the first round (if they even make the play in!)

Dont forget that only playoff series this overrated core has won was in large part due to an insane Brandon Clarke series against the Wolves.
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It’s better than what they have now. This is the problem with Collins. He makes a **** ton of money and while he’s not the problem he’s also not the solution. It’s why we never should have traded for him unless we got assets.

The whole idea behind the trade is that they get on court value for the next 1.5 years where they’d get none or very little.
 
HermanG said:
I dont think DA will trade Lauri or Collins.
  • Lauri might be at peak value but I'm not sold that DA wants to reboot this rebuild based on this year going poorly, especially since Key and Hendricks are showing promise. He will stay on the course.
  • For Collins, there are so many reasons why he wont be traded its not even funny that some of you are thinking about it. He is at bottom value so eating 1 year of his deal and letting him recover his stats (which he is doing) means his trade value is definitely on the rise. If there is any MO to DA its him being "value conscious" in his moves. Collins also fits the window age-wise and I'm calling serious scapegoat BS on anyone thinking he is even a top 5 root cause for our issues this year.
There are other much more likely trade candidates to be discussed, like KO, JC, THT and even Fontecchio (as well as he has played lately, he isnt cornerstone material and could definitely bring in some value).
Click to expand...
Why is Collins at bottoms value and also not a top 5 reason we suck? In court he might not be a top 5 reason we suck but give that salary slot to someone that can be part of the solution (perfectly reasonable given his generous pay) and are we better off?

The reason some of us are looking for trades of Collins it’s because it’s fairly clear he ain’t it and it might be a good idea to capitalize on his hot 3 point shooting start if we can.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Why is Collins at bottoms value and also not a top 5 reason we suck? In court he might not be a top 5 reason we suck but give that salary slot to someone that can be part of the solution (perfectly reasonable given his generous pay) and are we better off?

The reason some of us are looking for trades of Collins it’s because it’s fairly clear he ain’t it and it might be a good idea to capitalize on his hot 3 point shooting start if we can.
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Collins is at bottoms value because we bought him at that price point and havent given him enough touches to truely recover the value. Maybe the finger injury part is a concern of the past, but I dont think thats enough to sway teams to line up on our doorsteps.

His usage is 8th highest in the team, and 7th if we exclude Brice. All 4 guards the rookie, dumb, dumber and dumbest are ahead of him in that category. Shouldnt be, but they are. If we go look at boxes or tape its easy to say he is our 2nd most consistent player (both home and on the road) which is something we desperately need. He has scored less than 10 points once, and has 9 double doubles vs 10 by the entire rest of the team (Lauri 5, Walker 3, JC 1, KO 1).

We should expect that he is much better than what he appears in this fiasco, which is generated by guard and center play (both eyeball test and stats can prove the root cause without much doubt).
 
HermanG said:
Collins is at bottoms value because we bought him at that price point and havent given him enough touches to truely recover the value. Maybe the finger injury part is a concern of the past, but I dont think thats enough to sway teams to line up on our doorsteps.

His usage is 8th highest in the team, and 7th if we exclude Brice. All 4 guards the rookie, dumb, dumber and dumbest are ahead of him in that category. Shouldnt be, but they are. If we go look at boxes or tape its easy to say he is our 2nd most consistent player (both home and on the road) which is something we desperately need. He has scored less than 10 points once, and has 9 double doubles vs 10 by the entire rest of the team (Lauri 5, Walker 3, JC 1, KO 1).

We should expect that he is much better than what he appears in this fiasco, which is generated by guard and center play (both eyeball test and stats can prove the root cause without much doubt).
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Collins doesnt get touches becasuse Collins doesnt want touches. He's not the kind of guy who is going to command the ball. He gets his where he can in spots. He should be a 3rd big in a rotation off the bench.

If we upped his touches and gave him more opportunities to create, he would be worse. He doesnt make anyone better around him. I dont think he is so bad to where he makes us worse, but hes just there. Definition of average rotation player.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Collins doesnt get touches becasuse Collins doesnt want touches. He's not the kind of guy who is going to command the ball. He gets his where he can in spots. He should be a 3rd big in a rotation off the bench.

If we upped his touches and gave him more opportunities to create, he would be worse. He doesnt make anyone better around him. I dont think he is so bad to where he makes us worse, but hes just there. Definition of average rotation player.
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This
 
HermanG said:
Collins is at bottoms value because we bought him at that price point and havent given him enough touches to truely recover the value. Maybe the finger injury part is a concern of the past, but I dont think thats enough to sway teams to line up on our doorsteps.

His usage is 8th highest in the team, and 7th if we exclude Brice. All 4 guards the rookie, dumb, dumber and dumbest are ahead of him in that category. Shouldnt be, but they are. If we go look at boxes or tape its easy to say he is our 2nd most consistent player (both home and on the road) which is something we desperately need. He has scored less than 10 points once, and has 9 double doubles vs 10 by the entire rest of the team (Lauri 5, Walker 3, JC 1, KO 1).

We should expect that he is much better than what he appears in this fiasco, which is generated by guard and center play (both eyeball test and stats can prove the root cause without much doubt).
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If he can’t get touches in this rat team then I don’t know who’s going to give him enough touches. His three point shooting was absolutely 100% his best chance to change his value and that part has been good. Not having PnR ball handlers or a spaced floor can explain some of his other regression pretty easily.

Bear down @Saint Cy of JFC there is an analogy coming later.
 
Collins hasnt done anything outside of catch some impressive lobs where I thought "wow what a great play only a quality NBA player could make"

The one thing I guess I have to give Collins credit for is that the 3 big starting lineup is dominant as rebounders, and Collins is part of that. He's a quality rebounder.
 
Collins is just one of those players you have to watch to understand him. I never got wtf was going on in Atlanta, but I feel like I do now.
 
Though that being said, the Hawks still suck without Collins. Still one of the weirdest mediocre teams w/ how much talent they have.
 
Eh, Collins has different problems than he did in ATL. He lost his fastball. He’s no longer one of the best finishers in the league around the basket. He also made some improvements to his defense over had the years. But he’s been a big part of the disaster that is our defense. His analytics are the worst in his career. Worst scoring efficiency of his career. I’m sure we can come with a bunch of excuses, but those don’t mean **** as far as trade value.

Any trade you think of for John Collins, just substitute for KO+THT. Collins will not be traded, there won’t be a team that wants him.
 
KqWIN said:
Eh, Collins has different problems than he did in ATL. He lost his fastball. He’s no longer one of the best finishers in the league around the basket. He also made some improvements to his defense over the years. He’s been a big part of the disaster that is our defense. His analytics are the worst in his career. Worst scoring efficiency of his career. I’m sure we can come with a bunch of excuses, but those don’t mean **** as far as trade value.

Any trade you think of for John Collins, just substitute for KO+THT. Collins will not be traded, there won’t be a team that wants him.
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Preach
 
KqWIN said:
Eh, Collins has different problems than he did in ATL. He lost his fastball. He’s no longer one of the best finishers in the league around the basket. He also made some improvements to his defense over the years. He’s been a big part of the disaster that is our defense. His analytics are the worst in his career. Worst scoring efficiency of his career. I’m sure we can come with a bunch of excuses, but those don’t mean **** as far as trade value.

Any trade you think of for John Collins, just substitute for KO+THT. Collins will not be traded, there won’t be a team that wants him.
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Did he lose his fastball, or did he lose playing with one of the best offensive PG's in the NBA on a well spaced court?
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Did he lose his fastball, or did he lose playing with one of the best offensive PG's in the NBA on a well spaced court?
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Either way, does nothing for his trade value. The problem with the Jazz being in this flipping assets mode is that we are not a team that showcases talent and makes players look better than they are. We are the team that makes everyone look worse.
 
The idea of keeping Collins to squeeze out a modicum of positive value in return relative to what we gave up is the textbook definition of sunk-cost, even if that sunk cost was just opportunity. Well, that and $80M.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Collins doesnt get touches becasuse Collins doesnt want touches. He's not the kind of guy who is going to command the ball. He gets his where he can in spots. He should be a 3rd big in a rotation off the bench.

If we upped his touches and gave him more opportunities to create, he would be worse. He doesnt make anyone better around him. I dont think he is so bad to where he makes us worse, but hes just there. Definition of average rotation player.
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I think you have a lot of good points, except I do think he can play as a starter and be effective. Watch him on offense without the ball. He moves a lot more than you'd think, trying to make himself available.

His shot chart also shows it. He has 78 3 pointers.. 18 from left corner, 27 from right corner and 36 above the break.Screenshot_20231212_182725_Chrome.jpg

He also has 73% assisted rate, so 27% of his points are unassisted.

And this is all without a proper PnR connection and with very low amount of designed plays.

He has more in him. His biggest downfall is him being a meh defender, but he compensates by being an elite rebounder (especially considering how much he lives on the perimeter).
 
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