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Still don't believe in evolution? Try this!

I applied relevant quotes like my heroes. If Darwinian cultists define "any change" future or past as "evolution" "evolution" necessarily has to be true...at least in their Darwiniac world.

Kicking a ball, shooting a basket, or throwing a pass is movement by design.

Logically "selection" only comes into play after change has occurred, and it doesn't have to be a "certain change."

If all the necessary parts to a bike "appear" before a dad Christmas Eve I'm sure he could "order" them a variety of ways before actually taking the time to read the design plans, but these parts ain't just going to randomly "appear" to be "selected" in the first place, so the # of possible combos is irrelevant.

I understand that Darwin cultists believe that "individual unrelated mutations facilitated the production of all 200 necessary parts, completely by chance, and thus created the flagellum" but that belief is faith not science.

Your heroes also quote-mine authors to indicate they believe something that they don't believe. It's not an honest tactic, and you degrade yourself when you do it.

Even young-earth creationists acknowledge evolution happens. It is true.

Physically, kicking a ball is a result of the release of chemical energy, which is a manifestation of electromagnetic energy. Every movement or change we know of comes from a combination of the four basic forces.

If you want to claim certain changes are the result of an intelligence, you still need to provide a method by which those changes are accomplished for your suggestion to be science.

Selection is not random. Some changes can be explained through selection, other changes can not. For example, there is no selective mechanism that explains why primates can not produce Vitamin C.

Since living things only resemble bicycles in a very superficial manner, what applies to bicycles does not apply to loving things, generally.

I agree that "individual unrelated mutations facilitated the production of all 200 necessary parts, completely by chance, and thus created the flagellum" is not science, and it is in particular not evolutionary science. It's a straw man created by people trying to discredit evolution.
 
Even young-earth creationists acknowledge evolution happens. It is true.

...who are these "young-earth creationists" you speak of? Do they believe that the creative "days" described in Genesis chapter 1 are 24 hours long? (Not true!) Do they believe that the first human couple were Adam and Eve? (This is absolutely true!) Who are these "guys?"


If you want to claim certain changes are the result of an intelligence, you still need to provide a method by which those changes are accomplished for your suggestion to be science.

The "method" we subscribe to is similar to the expression made by biologist and Harvard professor Louis Agassiz who wrote that the living world shows “premeditation, wisdom, greatness” and that a major purpose of natural history is to analyze “the thoughts of the Creator of the Universe.”

...exactly WHAT methods do you subscribe to in the evolutionary "process?"
Is "evolution" really scientific? The “scientific method” is as follows: Observe what happens; based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true; test the theory by further observations and by experiments; and watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled. Is this the method followed by those who believe in and teach evolution?

Astronomer Robert Jastrow says: “To their chagrin [scientists] have no clear-cut answer, because chemists have never succeeded in reproducing nature’s experiments on the creation of life out of nonliving matter. Scientists do not know how that happened.”—The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (New York, p. 19.)

Evolutionist Loren Eiseley acknowledged: “After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past.”—The Immense Journey, p. 199.

According to New Scientist: “An increasing number of scientists, most particularly a growing number of evolutionists .*.*. argue that Darwinian evolutionary theory is no genuine scientific theory at all. .*.*. Many of the critics have the highest intellectual credentials.”— p. 828.


Physicist H. S. Lipson said: “The only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it.” —Physics Bulletin, Vol. 31, p. 138.



Selection is not random. Some changes can be explained through selection, other changes can not. For example, there is no selective mechanism that explains why primates can not produce Vitamin C.

....I really wanted to sink my teeth into this one....but it seems you did it for me! So if humans cannot produce there own vitamin C....but can get it from a large variety of fruits and vegetables easily assessable on our planet earth, doesn't that argue for intelligent design?

With our present limited scientific knowledge, we cannot explain how God created....but this statement of fact is true: " Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4)
 
Religion does not go hand-in-hand with decency, and often goes against it.

...no one mentioned "religion" in this discussion of decency. As you correctly pointed out religious "beliefs" can be anything but decent! But "decency" can and does trump "tolerance" because if we are tolerant of EVERYTHING....well, you got some serious problems and issues!
 
Depends on your definition of decency. In Nazy Germany no decent person would house a Jew knowingly from the state.

Ridiculous illustration of what we actually mean by "decency." Your higher learning has produced another pseudo-intellectual! And by the way, there were more than just a few "decent" people who knowingly housed Jewish people from the state.
 
But what if I love my bicycle?
 
Ridiculous illustration of what we actually mean by "decency." Your higher learning has produced another pseudo-intellectual! And by the way, there were more than just a few "decent" people who knowingly housed Jewish people from the state.

Everything we say depends on definitions. What the hell are you talking about?
 
I like how some folks want to act like the world is falling apart. The world is as good now as it has ever been.

In fact, ever since the U.S. came into existence as a secular state the world has been progressing at a break-neck pace.

Long live secularism and the peace and harmony it fosters.

ya gotta be joshing here. . . .

secularism, like any other philosophical methodology, has nothing to do with "peace", or "harmony", which are affective conditions of static societies.

If people are not seeking something better, or are indolent, lazy, indifferent, and in any other aspect unwilling to strive for a better life, we will have "peace" and "harmony".

Anybody with a new invention, a new idea, or a better way to do something, who actually tries to implement it, or present it to others, is going to disturb the status quo, bring in contention, unrest, and political ferment.
 
...who are these "young-earth creationists" you speak of? Do they believe that the creative "days" described in Genesis chapter 1 are 24 hours long? (Not true!) Do they believe that the first human couple were Adam and Eve? (This is absolutely true!) Who are these "guys?"

Pick any one you want, including the WTBTS. They all acknowledge, for example, that antibiotic resistance is a real issue and the result of evolution.

The "method" we subscribe to is similar to the expression made by biologist and Harvard professor Louis Agassiz who wrote that the living world shows “premeditation, wisdom, greatness” and that a major purpose of natural history is to analyze “the thoughts of the Creator of the Universe.”

None of that is science.

...exactly WHAT methods do you subscribe to in the evolutionary "process?"

The usual physical/chemical/biological reactions are all that is needed.

Is "evolution" really scientific? The “scientific method” is as follows: Observe what happens; based on those observations, form a theory as to what may be true; test the theory by further observations and by experiments; and watch to see if the predictions based on the theory are fulfilled. Is this the method followed by those who believe in and teach evolution?

Yes.

....I really wanted to sink my teeth into this one....but it seems you did it for me! So if humans cannot produce there own vitamin C....but can get it from a large variety of fruits and vegetables easily assessable on our planet earth, doesn't that argue for intelligent design?

The reason we can not ingest Vitamin C is that our gene for Vitamin C is broken. It's broken in the exact same way for every species of primate (all lemurs, all monkeys, all apes). By contrast, it's broken in a completely different way for guinea pigs. Why would your intelligent designer create this identical break in every primate, and a different one in guinea pugs?
 
ya gotta be joshing here. . . .

secularism, like any other philosophical methodology, has nothing to do with "peace", or "harmony", which are affective conditions of static societies.

If people are not seeking something better, or are indolent, lazy, indifferent, and in any other aspect unwilling to strive for a better life, we will have "peace" and "harmony".

Anybody with a new invention, a new idea, or a better way to do something, who actually tries to implement it, or present it to others, is going to disturb the status quo, bring in contention, unrest, and political ferment.

I might have been acting like a smart ***, but I wasn't joking.

I said secularism fosters peach and harmony. I think sectarian conflict and/or sectarian regimes are especially horrific.

Peace does not exclude progress. Not at all.

Harmony (working together in mutually beneficial ways) absolutely does not imply stagnation.

So, my question is, are you joking here?
 
Everything we say depends on definitions. What the hell are you talking about?

...well, what YOU seem to be talking about is there is no such thing as "absolute truth!" You must be an advocate of "relativism” and not surprising since your a product of "higher learning!"

Allan Bloom wrote in his book The Closing of the American Mind: “There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative.” Bloom found that if he challenged his students’ conviction on this matter, they would react with astonishment, “as though he were calling into question*2 + 2 =*4.”

...do you believe that 2+2 = 4? You're telling me/us that "decency" is relative....when in fact, it's not!!!

In his book The Art of Thinking, Professor V.*R.*Ruggiero expresses his surprise that even intelligent people sometimes say that truth is relative. He reasons: “If everyone makes his own truth, then no person’s idea can be better than another's. All must be equal. And if all ideas are equal, what is the point in researching any subject? Why dig in the ground for answers to archeological questions? Why probe the causes of tension in the Middle East? Why search for a cancer cure? Why explore the galaxy? These activities make sense only if some answers are better than others, if truth is something separate from, and unaffected by, individual perspectives.”
 
...well, what YOU seem to be talking about is there is no such thing as "absolute truth!" You must be an advocate of "relativism” and not surprising since your a product of "higher learning!"

Allan Bloom wrote in his book The Closing of the American Mind: “There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative.” Bloom found that if he challenged his students’ conviction on this matter, they would react with astonishment, “as though he were calling into question*2 + 2 =*4.”

...do you believe that 2+2 = 4? You're telling me/us that "decency" is relative....when in fact, it's not!!!

In his book The Art of Thinking, Professor V.*R.*Ruggiero expresses his surprise that even intelligent people sometimes say that truth is relative. He reasons: “If everyone makes his own truth, then no person’s idea can be better than another's. All must be equal. And if all ideas are equal, what is the point in researching any subject? Why dig in the ground for answers to archeological questions? Why probe the causes of tension in the Middle East? Why search for a cancer cure? Why explore the galaxy? These activities make sense only if some answers are better than others, if truth is something separate from, and unaffected by, individual perspectives.”

The funny thing is CJ that, if you would pay attention, mostly I support your position in these debates, at least I provide a counterpoint on that side to your often insane point. In this case I made the comment entirely tongue in cheek. It was an OBVIOUS play on the time-worn yet effective "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is". You were the only one on the board who didn't catch that and took it literally and then extrapolated from that single comment an entire personal life philosophy for me, counter to actual comments I have made many times on this board openly, and in direct conflict with my attempts to temper these conversations with some humor and at the same time give some minor level of support to the creationist standpoint. Dude, flat out, you are insane or brain-washed or both.

First rule of successful conversation: listen to understand, not simply to respond.
 
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