The history white people need to learn

[franklin]

White privilege does not exist.

America does not have an institutionalized racism problem any longer. We have an institutionalized ghetto problem that skews the comp numbers for AAs to whites. Get rid of the ghettos we created to fence in AAs and you'll solve the problem.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

This seems like it is a part of the comments we have seen that it is ok to be proud of being black or latino or asian, and they each need their own month or whatever to celebrate their diversity, but we are absolutely not EVER allowed to be proud of being "white", and in fact we are supposed to be deeply ashamed of being white. Seems like a deeper more invasive version of political correctness to me.



hey hey beat me to it again. I may have to slash his tires. Or meet up with him at a Panda with my sword.

Oh come on, saying that 'we are supposed to be deeply ashamed of being white' is just such an grossly inaccurate, and frankly, dumb, statement. Nobody is actually saying that, and if they are, they are a small, small fringe of unstrung nutcases. I realize that making this claim serves the purpose of relieving you of any obligation to take such matters seriously, but just give the PC persecution complex a rest, will ya, please?

 

[Stoked]

Oh come on, saying that 'we are supposed to be deeply ashamed of being white' is just such an grossly inaccurate, and frankly, dumb, statement. Nobody is actually saying that, and if they are, they are a small, small fringe of unstrung nutcases. I realize that making this claim serves the purpose of relieving you of any obligation to take such matters seriously, but just give the PC persecution complex a rest, will ya, please?

Don't even know where to start with this one. I think there are very legitimiate complaints in LGs post..

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Don't even know where to start with this one. I think there are very legitimiate complaints in LGs post..

How about starting with the claim that 'we are supposed to be ashamed for being white?' Do you really think this is an accurate statement?

I don't, I think it's a classic example of the logical fallacy Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[Stoked]

How about starting with the claim that 'we are supposed to be ashamed for being white?' Do you really think this is an accurate statement?

I don't, I think it's a classic example of the logical fallacy Reductio ad absurdum.

Do a social experiment. Go around telling differing groups of people how proud you are to be white. Pay attention to your responses.

 

[JAZZGASM]

Do a social experiment. Go around telling differing groups of people how proud you are to be white. Pay attention to your responses.

I am glad I am golden beige. I'd hate to be white.

 

[Stoked]

I am glad I am golden beige. I'd hate to be white.

lol, I am pale as can be. Pretty sad. I wouldn't mind the ability to tan.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Do a social experiment. Go around telling differing groups of people how proud you are to be white. Pay attention to your responses.

That's NOT what we're talking about here. Reticence about proclaiming one's pride about being white IS NOT the same thing as being compelled to be ashamed for being white. You're conflating two very different things.

 

[JAZZGASM]

lol, I am pale as can be. Pretty sad. I wouldn't mind the ability to tan.

You should change your handle to Powder.

 

[Stoked]

That's NOT the same thing we're talking about. Reticence about proclaiming one's pride about being white IS NOT the same thing as being compelled to be ashamed about being white.

Hahaha.

Why would someone be hesitant to proclaim that if it is not seen negatively by society? They wouldn't. But since people are then there is a social stigma attached to it.

 

[framer]

Hahaha.

Why would someone be hesitant to proclaim that if it is not seen negatively by society? They wouldn't. But since people are then there is a social stigma attached to it.

Case in point, these guys:

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Hahaha.

Why would someone be hesitant to proclaim that if it is not seen negatively by society? They wouldn't. But since people are then there is a social stigma attached to it.

It's quite a simple feat not to be ashamed at being white, but at the same time, not feel any sense of white pride. I for example, feel no shame whatsoever at being white, but neither do I feel any sense of pride about it.

Did you read the article cited in the OP? One of the main points there is that Whiteness is not defined by race, per se, but about about which groups have power, or are accepted into the social/economic/political power structures. I agree with this argument, which if true, implies that white pride is more or less equivalent to pride about membership within a privileged class, or a class that one believes ought to be privileged over other groups. Can you see why it might be a problem to go around publicly expressing pride at belonging to a privileged group? At the same time, I don't see any requirement that one feels ashamed for belonging to the privileged group. My membership in the group is purely the result of my birth; I've nothing to be ashamed about, although I can be and am ashamed at how many people within my privileged group behave.

Let me ask you this, if someone were to proclaim his/her pride in being white, what do you think the odds are that this person is a racist?

White pride, in practical terms, is a code word used by racists; it's not a concept used in the mainstream of 'white' society. Declaring white pride is a way of declaring your superiority over others. Can you now begin to see why some people might see this as problematic?

Let's try an analogy. Let's say that you were born into a 1 percenter family. Now, you need not be ashamed for being born into a very rich family, but still find it unsavory to go around publicly declaring your 1 percenter pride. Can you see how these are different things?

 

[Stoked]

It's quite a simple feat not to be ashamed at being white, but at the same time, not feel any sense of white pride. I for example, feel no shame whatsoever at being white, but neither do I feel any sense of pride about it.

Did you read the article cited in the OP? One of the main points there is that Whiteness is not defined by race, per se, but about about which groups have power, or are accepted into the social/economic/political power structures. I agree with this argument, which if true, implies that white pride is more or less equivalent to pride about membership within a privileged class, or a class that one believes ought to be privileged over other groups. Can you see why it might be a problem to go around publicly expressing pride at belonging to a privileged group? At the same time, I don't see any requirement that one feels ashamed for belonging to the privileged group. My membership in the group is purely the result of my birth; I've nothing to be ashamed about, although I can be and am ashamed at how many people within my privileged group behave.

Let me ask you this, if someone were to proclaim his/her pride in being white, what do you think the odds are that this person is a racist?

White pride, in practical terms, is a code word used by racists; it's not a concept used in the mainstream of 'white' society. Declaring white pride is a way of declaring your superiority over others. Can you now begin to see why some people might see this as problematic?

Let's try an analogy. Let's say that you were born into a 1 percenter family. Now, you need not be ashamed for being born into a very rich family, but still find it unsavory to go around publicly declaring your 1 percenter pride. Can you see how these are different things?

Nope, no social stigma at all. none.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Nope, no social stigma at all. none.

There is, and ought to be, social stigma attached to 'white pride,' for reasons I've explained.

Social stigma attached to socially undesirable acts is wholly appropriate.

That said, I'm not sure what you're point is.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Not a bad article; but as the title suggests, it is what it is: History

The good news is while the 20th Century was about dividing us by race, the 21st Century will most certainly be about dividing us by class. The lines are already clearly drawn

So in the coming decades, poor white folks and black folks can at least feel good about being flushed down the same toilet together.

Except that hundreds of years of racism has put POC firmly behind in the class struggle, so the 'battle' lines in that war are still going to be largely racial as well.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Except that hundreds of years of racism has put POC firmly behind in the class struggle, so the 'battle' lines in that war are still going to be largely racial as well.

Or, alternatively, it will be largely about education level as well.

I tend to think that the strongest explanatory factor is class rather than race, although race and education probably correlated strongly with class and vice versa. It's a pretty tangled set of causal factors. But, you're right in that race is will certainly continue to be a large part of it.

Interestingly, those who are most apt to declare their white pride are, it seems, drawn disproportionately from the lower, less educated classes. My hypothesis is that their fixation about race and white pride has a lot to do with their desire to elevate themselves above the [N-word], in recognition of their own lowly status, so that they can be comforted by the thought that they are at least better than someone else.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Or, alternatively, it will be largely about education level as well.

I tend to think that the strongest explanatory factor is class rather than race, although race and education probably correlated strongly with class and vice versa. It's a pretty tangled set of causal factors. But, you're right in that race is will certainly continue to be a large part of it.

Interestingly, those who are most apt to declare their white pride are, it seems, drawn disproportionately from the lower, less educated classes. My hypothesis is that their fixation about race and white pride has a lot to do with their desire to elevate themselves above the [N-word], in recognition of their own lowly status, so that they can be comforted by the thought that they are at least better than someone else.

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

[Stoked]

There is, and ought to be, social stigma attached to 'white pride,' for reasons I've explained.

Social stigma attached to socially undesirable acts is wholly appropriate.

That said, I'm not sure what you're point is.

There is but there shouldn't be. A few idiots should not define what is acceptable for society. But it is not those groups alone that are pushing the shame over being proud to be white.

No I am not advocating for white history month.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Black pride clearly is about pride. Listen to the rhetoric. Terms like "the white man" are pervasive. Black pride is not addressing a set of higher humanist ideals that apply to all people. It is a singling out. A base urge akin to nationalism whereby people choose to embrace the pride of a constructed group.

I think you've grossly misrepresented the Black Pride 'movement.' I would suggest to you that it is a diverse movement with diverse messages, including humanistic ideals such as individual and group pride and rejection of shame, but also including baser emotions, such as deviance against perceived oppressors and messages of intolerance and hate. It's understandable for those who feel oppressed to have feelings of hate, or other strong negative emotions, toward their oppressors. Disappointing but understandable. You, however, have chosen to focus on that part of the movement that fits your preconceived narrative. That the Black Pride movement includes many, many reasonable, rational people with positive messages should be seen as a triumph of sorts, yet all you can see, it seems, is the negative. Why is that?

 

[Stoked]

I think you've grossly misrepresented the Black Pride 'movement.' I would suggest to you that it is a diverse movement with diverse messages, including humanistic ideals such as individual and group pride and rejection of shame, but also including baser emotions, such as deviance against perceived oppressors and messages of intolerance and hate. It's understandable for those who feel oppressed to have feelings of hate, or other strong negative emotions, toward their oppressors. Disappointing but understandable. You, however, have chosen to focus on that part of the movement that fits your preconceived narrative. That the Black Pride movement includes many, many reasonable, rational people with positive messages should be seen as a triumph of sorts, yet all you can see, it seems, is the negative. Why is that?

hmmm....interesting. Flip that around for me.