Why the Hell Isn't Rudy in the Starting Lineup?

[QuinSnydersHair]

No. It's not about hate.

I know Boozer could score. I just don't give a **** about that. When the chips were down he couldn't score. And his defense was atrocious year around. I don't consider that to be a "really really good player". It's just my view.

A lot of players can give you stats. Boozer was one of them. The truth is, he was soft and not a true competitor. He was on a team that was good as a team. Just like in Chicago, the Jazz won in spite of him, not because of him.

Boozer's a lot like Kanter really. All offense, no defense. Average height with limited length, athleticism and worse, defensive foot speed and reaction. Likable guys but with a sort of semi-douchey public persona and inability to see their flaws and care about them. They're also guys who you think could be a key starter because of how strong they are on offense with the hope they'll "get it" and improve on defense. And they never do. Ever.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't think you can be a really good team with one way offensive players.

That jazz team was a really good team. Memo, boozer, and to a lesser extent d-will were one way offensive players.

Nash and stoudamires suns were a really good team too

 

[Hekate]

I have said it in the game thread. It's not really starting if you get subbed at 6th minute.

 

[fishonjazz]

When the chips were down he couldn't score.

Game 7 in a playoff series against houston on the road. Boozer dropped 35 pts and double digit rebounds and defended yao one on one much of that game

 

[fishonjazz]

Hack I'm curious.
What team do you think would win between the following?

Team defense
PG patrick beverly
SG toney allen
SF bruce bowen
PF ben wallace
C tyson chandler
Versus
Team offense
PG steve nash
SG harden
SF durant
PF dirk
C robin lopez


I never hear you talk about offense..... ever.
It is important as well.

 

[Hotdog]

That jazz team was a really good team. Memo, boozer, and to a lesser extent d-will were one way offensive players.

Nash and stoudamires suns were a really good team too

How many championships did they win?

Set the bar a little higher please.

You may not think it would be nice to win a championship. I do though.

 

[Hotdog]

Hack I'm curious.
What team do you think would win between the following?

Team defense
PG patrick beverly
SG toney allen
SF bruce bowen
PF ben wallace
C tyson chandler
Versus
Team offense
PG steve nash
SG harden
SF durant
PF dirk
C robin lopez


I never hear you talk about offense..... ever.
It is important as well.

Lol.

Nice try.

For one, Robin Lopez is a defensive center. A pretty good one too. Durant is also a good defender

What you just put up there was dumb.

Let me try

My defensive team (all great defenders)

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Karl Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon

Vs

Offensive team

Deron Williams
Kyle Korver
CJ Miles
Carlos Boozer
Memo Okur


See what I did there? Please don't ever try to make that point again. You are better than that Fish


I don't discount offense. I just demand you play defense.

Defense first, offense second. It's not complicated.


BTW, what does that first group all have in common? They were all great two players. Not one way players who eventually fade from memory.

 

[Hotdog]

I have said it in the game thread. It's not really starting if you get subbed at 6th minute.

Ummmm, actually....

How many minutes does Gobert average off the bench? Just curious.

 

[addictionary]

Starting matters to players so Quin should fix that **** up quickly.

Players ought to be complete effort players both on O and D. There is no such thing as this guy only plays defense, this one offense. Murder any player who tries that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

That's just incorrect.

Millsap was a far better defender than Boozer, along with being a better overall player, but he never got to start over Boozer. I shouldn't have to rehash this argument. It's been proven over time that Millsap has always been the better player. Boozer on other teams can't even get into the starting line up. Sloan refused to see this. Maybe it wasn't Sloan though. I have no idea at this point. It's still going on after the Sloan era.

I was saying all of this back then and I knew I was right. I know I'm right with Kanter and Gobert too. The Jazz are making a mistake with this situation. Time will prove it. It's really dumb that we even have to argue about this.

I wouldn't say always. Early on in Sap's career he wasn't better than Boozer. The thing about Boozer vs. Kanter is that Boozer actually fit in an elite offense and was a big part of it's success and helping everyone else be successful in it. I could see why it would be hard to bench Boozer in Sloan's offensive system. Though I think Sap was the better player towards the end of his shared time with Boozer in Utah, Boozer was still the better fit for what Sloan wanted to do offensively.

Kanter just sucks at everything but post moves and offensive rebounding and doesn't fit into what Quin wants to do.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Boozer was one of the best offensive big men in the league playing for us. Whenever he was out with an injury, our offense would kinda disappear more often than not. Millsap was better defensively but was also limited against bigger players. Boozer doesn't get near the credit he deserves for his importance to the team. You could make a case for starting Sap, but it's far from being a given that we'd have been better. Nothing close to the difference between Rudy and Enes.

Yup, Boozer was the perfect fit for Sloan's offense and Dwill's game. Even if you think Sap was the better player, hard to argue he was the better fit for what we were doing at the time.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Just look at the Warriors right now. They are a perfect example of what I'm saying.

Draymond Green who supposedly is an inferior offensive player to David Lee has remained a starter even after Lee returned. The Warriors are far better with Green playing rather than David Lee. Why is that? Could it be that defense is important, and volume scores who don't play defense are not? Steve Kerr is smart not to give the nod to Lee. If the Warriors roster was ran by the Jazz, David Lee would be back starting over Green, and you all know it. It's how the Jazz operate.



I really hate saying this, but I would give anything for Warriors coaching and front office to be running the Jazz right now. We would be so much better.


The Jazz are this weirdly unique team that is a combination of being ran really good and really bad at the same time. They can't seem to get out of their own way. They refuse to refine their philosophy. It's about sticking to the plan that never quite gets you where you want to be, but gets you close. So frustrating!!

Bro, the Warriors have Curry and Thompson, 2 offensive juggernauts. They can afford to bench scorers for defenders. Jazz had D-Will and Okur, neither who were as good at scoring. Comparing apples to oranges right there. And Green can hit 3's and Lee can't, so it's not like it's a pure defense for offense trade off, it's an offensive system fit trade off. Kind of like how Boozer fit Sloan's offensive system more.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Boozer's a lot like Kanter really. All offense, no defense. Average height with limited length, athleticism and worse, defensive foot speed and reaction. Likable guys but with a sort of semi-douchey public persona and inability to see their flaws and care about them. They're also guys who you think could be a key starter because of how strong they are on offense with the hope they'll "get it" and improve on defense. And they never do. Ever.

But Boozer was one of the top passing big men and Kanter is one of the worst passers in the history of the NBA. Kind of a huge difference maker.

 

[Hotdog]

I wouldn't say always. Early on in Sap's career he wasn't better than Boozer. The thing about Boozer vs. Kanter is that Boozer actually fit in an elite offense and was a big part of it's success and helping everyone else be successful in it. I could see why it would be hard to bench Boozer in Sloan's offensive system. Though I think Sap was the better player towards the end of his shared time with Boozer in Utah, Boozer was still the better fit for what Sloan wanted to do offensively.

Kanter just sucks at everything but post moves and offensive rebounding and doesn't fit into what Quin wants to do.

Yup, Boozer was the perfect fit for Sloan's offense and Dwill's game. Even if you think Sap was the better player, hard to argue he was the better fit for what we were doing at the time.

I can't believe so many people are defending Boozer. We weren't this offensive juggernaut because of him. Good defensive teams easily shut him down time after time.

Again, the Jazz were a good team with or without him


Anyone remember when Boozer went out for a bunch of games and Millsap went off with a bunch of double doubles in a row, and we were winning a bunch of games still? Then when Boozer got back, Millsap was benched again? Well I do, because I watched every game. And even back then this ridiculous argument that Boozer is better raged on then, with only a few of us wanting Millsap to start. Even though the proof was in the pudding with how we did with Millsap instead of Boozer, people still refused to see the truth just like now. And that was in the middle of Boozer's prime.(if you don't believe me, look it up)



It's fallacy to believe Boozer was ever a good or great player. He gave up way too much on defense for him to be good. We were better with Millsap. Maybe we weren't at first when Millsap was a rookie, but it wasn't long after.

 

[Hotdog]

Bro, the Warriors have Curry and Thompson, 2 offensive juggernauts. They can afford to bench scorers for defenders. Jazz had D-Will and Okur, neither who were as good at scoring. Comparing apples to oranges right there. And Green can hit 3's and Lee can't, so it's not like it's a pure defense for offense trade off, it's an offensive system fit trade off. Kind of like how Boozer fit Sloan's offensive system more.

Okur and DWill weren't good scorers? Wtf are you talking about? That's the only thing they were good at.

Seriously, you need to stop arguing about this. You were probably 14 at the time and didn't understand what was going on

 

[SojoDave]

So for Kanter's offense, we are giving up passing, defense, rim protection, offensive flow, and basketball IQ. I think that is too much to give up for that little of offense. ME WANTUM RUDY TO START. I get so bummed when Rudy isn't on the floor.

 

[fishonjazz]

How many championships did they win?

Set the bar a little higher please.

You may not think it would be nice to win a championship. I do though.

You said really good team. You set that bar yourself. You didn't say championship team

Stockton and Malone didn't win a chip.... I guess they were not good either

 

[fishonjazz]

Lol.

Nice try.

For one, Robin Lopez is a defensive center. A pretty good one too. Durant is also a good defender

What you just put up there was dumb.

Let me try

My defensive team (all great defenders)

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Karl Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon

Vs

Offensive team

Deron Williams
Kyle Korver
CJ Miles
Carlos Boozer
Memo Okur


See what I did there? Please don't ever try to make that point again. You are better than that Fish


I don't discount offense. I just demand you play defense.

Defense first, offense second. It's not complicated.


BTW, what does that first group all have in common? They were all great two players. Not one way players who eventually fade from memory.

We are discussing only defense vs only offense. Nice try

That is why I had nash, harden, dirk. (Horrible defenders) if you think durant and lopez are good defenders then go ahead and pick two other great offensive players that suck at defense.

You can't have the guys you chose on that defensive team cause they are all good offensive players.

Basically pick a team with all time great scorers who suck at defense vs a team of all time great defenders who suck at offense. See who would win.

 

[Farmer.Tan]

A little thing called offense. It's that part of the game that is concerned with making the ball go through the hoop. You see, in basketball, you get points for making the ball go in the hoop, and while stopping the other team is extremely useful, it is utterly pointless if you yourself can't put the ball in the hole afterwards. Hence our whopping score vs the Spurs when Rudy played 30 mins and Kanter had an off night and only played 22.

Rudy abd Derrick aren't an efficient offensive combo, and you can't not start Favors after paying him, and then the trade rumors around draft time.

There is no reason why Rudy, Enes, and Derrick can't get 30 mins a piece. We don't need to give those minutes to journeymen like Trevor Booker. The last few seasons, it seems like the Jazz FO have been overly concerned with developing our mediocre talent so they can move on and get their next mediocre contract. Shouldn't be our job.

You can not sit an emerging elite player for the excuse of "offense".
Go out and buy some offensive firepower.....but Rudy needs to be out there.

 

[GVC]

But Boozer was one of the top passing big men and Kanter is one of the worst passers in the history of the NBA. Kind of a huge difference maker.

Yep. Boozer and Kanter might be similar defensive players, but Boozer was a much better (team) offensive player. The two aren't comparable; Boozer was a legitimate all-star, Kanter is a third big.

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