Why the Hell Isn't Rudy in the Starting Lineup?

[Hotdog]

Why apologize to that *******? Dude might be the worst combination of ignorance and arrogance in jazzfanz history.

I'm the *******? That's rich!

Do you know what your reputation is around here? What, you don't remember how respond to people. I'm responding to you like an ******* because that's you, and you deserve it.

You are moron. You constantly throwing out ridiculous stats that mean absolutely nothing. Or at most, barely anything.

For you to try and sell that Jazz team was good at defense just proves how stupid you are.

 

[kabenac]

Lets see if Kanter is still starting after the trade deadline this year. All this complaining sounds a lot like how people were complaining about Josh Howard and Richard Jefferson starting in past seasons. It's called showcasing players to assert their trade value.

Also, keep in mind that the Jazz aren't actually trying to win right now. They want to draft one more stud.


Add one more exciting player to Exum / Hayward / Favors / Gobert, and we might actually have something.

I read some more posts after posting and I agree with this 100%. Imagine if we had a star SG (or a star SF and we moved Hayward to two). So we have a star scorer with Hayward as a second option. Defenses are trying to stop our star on the offensive end = the other's team's big not paying as much attention to Rudy = more easy points for a big who has excellent shot selection. All that with Gobert doing his thing on the defensive end. We are closer than we think. I would love more of a pure PG also but we're seriously set with 3/5 starters - Hayward, Favors & Gobert are perfect in this system. Wish we could land a Klay Thompson-like player - can't believe the Warriors were going to trade him for Kevin Love! ha ha.

 

[Nate505]

By watching the games I knew Kanter is a total black hole in the post (he did get trained by Big Al after all), but the numbers are absolutely depressing.

In 1019 minutes played he has accumulated a whopping 23 assists. So per 36 minutes he averages about 0.8 assists a game.

Gobert on the other hand, a guy who couldn't pass a lick last year (which means per 36 minutes he was averaging the same number of assists as Kanter is now), has had 45 assists in 893 minutes (so in 126 less minutes he's nearly doubled Kanter's assist total), or 1.8 per 36 minutes. And it shows to anyone who watches the game...he's a willing passer.

I'm not trying to be this down on Kanter, but it sure feels like the team does better with Gobert starting. Tonight will be a good test as they are facing a lousy team on the road. When Gobert started they beat a good Bulls team on the road...with Kanter starting can they beat a much worse team just a hundred miles or so up the road?

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

But Boozer was one of the top passing big men and Kanter is one of the worst passers in the history of the NBA. Kind of a huge difference maker.

I'll agree with you there.

 

[Hotdog]

My point is that I think you can have bad defenders on championship teams as long as that player is special offensively (dirk win a chip), is a really good role player who fits in (Steve kerr with chips), or you can hide thier poor individual defense with scheme and having other good defenders (diaw)

History is full of championship teams with poor defenders on them

Dirk didn't win a championship until Tyson Chandler. Why do you think that is? Also, Dirk could play sufficient defense. Hes 7 feet tall.

Steve Kerr hits some big shots, but the Bulls didn't need him, and they certainly didn't win because of him. They won because Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen were great defenders along with be great offensively

Yes, you are right, there are bad defenders on championship teams. And they mostly ride the pine. What's your point with that? Every team has crappy players on it. That's why they are on the bench.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yes, you are right, there are bad defenders on championship teams.

Well there ya go. That was my only point.
You originally said it couldn't be done. I disagreed is all.

 

[Jamezz]

What's all the fuzz? Calm down lads.
Who's the best C, Rudy or Kanter? So who must be in the starting lineup? If the coaching staff and FO were smart they'd be keeping the future DPOY as happy as can be. Gobert will end up making them his b******

*Sits back and relaxes

 

[fishonjazz]

What's all the fuzz? Calm down lads.
Who's the best C, Rudy or Kanter? So who must be in the starting lineup? If the coaching staff and FO were smart they'd be keeping the future DPOY as happy as can be. Gobert will end up making them his b******

*Sits back and relaxes

Gobert

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Start or no start, 20 minutes is unacceptable for Rudy. This was mentioned many times in the Burks starting conversations, but when a guy doesn't start, it's difficult to get into the 32-35 minute range - where Rudy clearly deserves to be.

 

[Hekate]

Start or no start, 20 minutes is unacceptable for Rudy. This was mentioned many times in the Burks starting conversations, but when a guy doesn't start, it's difficult to get into the 32-35 minute range - where Rudy clearly deserves to be.

Considering Favors and Kanter can play the 4, there is absolutely no reason he can't play 30 minutes coming off the bench. You prolly don't want him to play 35 minutes, though. No need to wear him down early in his career.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Considering Favors and Kanter can play the 4, there is absolutely no reson he can't play 30 minutes coming off the bench. You prolly don't want him to play 35 minutes, though. No need to wear him down early in his career.

I agree, but unfortunately, it's an incredibly rare occurrence.

 

[Hotdog]

Well there ya go. That was my only point.
You originally said it couldn't be done. I disagreed is all.

That doesn't mean anything.

We are talking about the key pieces on a team. Did you really just drag all that out to prove that some scrub can coexist on a championship team? No you didnt. You tried to argue that offensive only players can be the key to being a really good team, which by my definition means you can contend for a championship.

The Suns and Jazz were never true contenders. As proven by what happened when they played real contenders. They got smacked around and looked pathetic. And not only did their defense fail, but so did the offense. When the chips were down they couldn't even be the same offensive team. And that has everything to do with how you compete on the defensive end. Defense charges your team up, negates points, gives confidence, leads to fast point breaks etc..


Some scrub on a team has nothing to do with what we are talking about. No team has been a fully loaded all star team. It's Ludacris to suggest that's what I was trying to say.

 

[fishonjazz]

That doesn't mean anything.

We are talking about the key pieces on a team. Did you really just drag all that out to prove that some scrub can coexist on a championship team? No you didnt. You tried to argue that offensive only players can be the key to being a really good team, which by my definition means you can contend for a championship.

The Suns and Jazz were never true contenders. As proven by what happened when they played real contenders. They got smacked around and looked pathetic. And not only did their defense fail, but so did the offense. When the chips were down they couldn't even be the same offensive team. And that has everything to do with how you compete on the defensive end. Defense charges your team up, negates points, gives confidence, leads to fast point breaks etc..


Some scrub on a team has nothing to do with what we are talking about. No team has been a fully loaded all star team. It's Ludacris to suggest that's what I was trying to say.

You and I feel differently about dirk apparently.
I think he is a poor defender

Also just cause a guy like Steve nash or James harden have not win a championship does not mean a team cant win a chip with those guys contributing to a team. It's hard to win a chip. Harden still might win one. Steph curry too and I think he is an important piece of that team

 

[nightmare3983]

Ummmm, actually....

How many minutes does Gobert average off the bench? Just curious.

18.9 minutes as a reserve, 33.4 as a starter, although it's obviously skewed because Rudy has only started when someone was injured and there was less competition for minutes.

 

[Hotdog]

You and I feel differently about dirk apparently.
I think he is a poor defender

Also just cause a guy like Steve nash or James harden have not win a championship does not mean a team cant win a chip with those guys contributing to a team. It's hard to win a chip. Harden still might win one. Steph curry too and I think he is an important piece of that team

Dirk competes to the best of his abilities on defense. Hes just limited athletically. In big games he steps it up too. He's a true competitor.


Steph Curry is a good defender. He's 2nd in the league in steals per game.

Harden is 7th in the league in steals, along with averaging about a block per game. He's never been a great defender but has improved a lot this year. If he wants to win a championship he better play defense


Mash was never good at defense. But for him to ever to win a championship, he would have had to play with a lot of good defenders.

 

[fishonjazz]

Dirk competes to the best of his abilities on defense. Hes just limited athletically. In big games he steps it up too. He's a true competitor.


Steph Curry is a good defender. He's 2nd in the league in steals per game.

Harden is 7th in the league in steals, along with averaging about a block per game. He's never been a great defender but has improved a lot this year. If he wants to win a championship he better play defense


Mash was never good at defense. But for him to ever to win a championship, he would have had to play with a lot of good defenders.

You have worn me down.

I now hope we never have a player like steve nash or dirk on the jazz

 

[8]

Sorry, I didn't speak clearly enough.

I didn't mean to imply Kanter to the Cavs. I'm just pointing out what was given for Mosgov. 2 first rounders.

My point was that he does have value. It keeps being suggested that the reason why we haven't traded him is because we won't get anything more than garbage, like a second rounder. It's not true. We could get a decent package for him.

The Jazz aren't very keen on a trading players. That's my point. History proves that. Deron Williams is the only significant trade they have ever made, and look how it turned out. The Jazz are just way to conservative with the team. They are scared to be bold. It's ll about play it safe as possible

Neither one of us know, nor have a convincing argument. I don't think Kanter holds much value because he's not very good and he's on the last year of a contract (the fact that it's as a restricted FA helps a little perhaps). Furthermore, getting rid of him for a bucket of chicken (while it would be very delicious) just puts someone worse at his spot in the rotation. Perhaps the Jazz can get some great deal for him, idk.

You are saying the Jazz can get some good deals for him because you know that they can. You say there are good deals out there. That's funny. Your level of knowledge on that particular subject is the same as the homeless dude living in a box on the street down from ESA, which also is the same as mine. None of us knows jack ****.

 

[Hotdog]

18.9 minutes as a reserve, 33.4 as a starter, although it's obviously skewed because Rudy has only started when someone was injured and there was less competition for minutes.

Exactly.

When you come off the bench, you are more than likely to average less minutes than if you were to start. Also, how the game starts out is big deal. Momentum is huge is the NBA.

Rudy has to be the starter. So the question remains. Is it going to cause problems if Kanter has to come off the bench? Do we want to pay a premium for a bench big?

That's why I think we should be shopping Kanter. I don't hate him. It's just the right move at this juncture. But only if we can get decent value. Which I think we can.

There is reason why we aren't advocating trading Favors. It's because he can play defense too.

Not saying g this towards you nightmare. Just saying it.

 

[Hotdog]

You have worn me down.

I now hope we never have a player like steve nash or dirk on the jazz

Lol

Sorry bro.

I've just watched too much Boozer/Jefferson/Okur/Kanter defense. It drives me nuts. It's not good basketball.

 

[Hotdog]

Neither one of us know, nor have a convincing argument. I don't think Kanter holds much value because he's not very good and he's on the last year of a contract (the fact that it's as a restricted FA helps a little perhaps). Furthermore, getting rid of him for a bucket of chicken (while it would be very delicious) just puts someone worse at his spot in the rotation. Perhaps the Jazz can get some great deal for him, idk.

You are saying the Jazz can get some good deals for him because you know that they can. You say there are good deals out there. That's funny. Your level of knowledge on that particular subject is the same as the homeless dude living in a box on the street down from ESA, which also is the same as mine. None of us knows jack ****.

Ok. Say we do trade Kanter. Care to make a friendly bet on about what value we get back?