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12 year old gay Mormon at church

To be fair, I'm guessing every one of these paid clergy have paid for there own mission and have given countless hours serving for free as bishops, stake presidents, etc. that can be extremely taxing on themselves and their families, and have most likely given plenty to charitable church causes. It's not like the church goes out and grabs some random member and says "hey, want to be a 70 or 12 member?". These people have long years of pedigree in unpaid church service.

This brings up another issue: Why doesn't the Church pay MORE of their leadership? I'd bet an extra $5,000 a year for Elder's Quorum Presidents would change lives. How many bishops life's would be changed by $15,000 for the part time job they are serving in? How about some poor Relief Society President. Why not toss her $5,000 for the 20 hours a week she puts in?
 
From Talmage, a much more inspired tithe:

As the matter presents itself to my mind, it is as though there had been a contract made between myself and the Lord, and that in effect He had said to me: “You have need of many things in this world—food, clothing, and shelter for your family and yourself, the common comforts of life, and the things that shall be conducive to refinement, to development, to righteous enjoyment. You desire material possessions to use for the assistance of others, and thereby gain greater blessings for yourself and yours. Now, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase in substance and possessions; you will have your loses, as well as your gains; you will have your periods of trouble as well as your times of peace. Some years will be plenty unto you, and others will be years of scarcity. And, now, instead of doing as mortal landlords do—require you to contract [p.208]with them to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be—you shall pay me not in advance, but when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then you can afford to pay me a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then you shall pay me less; and should it be that you are reduced to the utmost penury so that you have nothing coming in, you will pay me nothing.”

There, Talmage teaches very clearly that you pay your tithing on what is LEFT OVER AFTER you pay for food, shelter and clothing. THAT version of tithing is much more God-like and fair.

Instead of some poor mom paying $2500 on $25,000 of income, she gets to feed her family first, put a roof over their heads and clothe them. And THEN she pays tithing on what is left over. So, instead of her paying tithing on the $25,000, which would end up being much more than she has left over (but let's day it's $2,500), she would pay tithing on what was left over.

Let's say she pays $1000 in rent. $600 in food. $50 in clothing. Finally, $350 per month for health insurance. That equals $2,000 per month and $24,000 per year. She would have $1,000 left over.

In today's tithe, she would owe $2,500, which makes it very hard to feed, clothe and shelter her family.

In Talmage's tithe, she would owe $100, which would allow her to do her duty as a mother and take care of her family.

Big difference.
 
From Talmage, a much more inspired tithe:



There, Talmage teaches very clearly that you pay your tithing on what is LEFT OVER AFTER you pay for food, shelter and clothing. THAT version of tithing is much more God-like and fair.

Instead of some poor mom paying $2500 on $25,000 of income, she gets to feed her family first, put a roof over their heads and clothe them. And THEN she pays tithing on what is left over. So, instead of her paying tithing on the $25,000, which would end up being much more than she has left over (but let's day it's $2,500), she would pay tithing on what was left over.

Let's say she pays $1000 in rent. $600 in food. $50 in clothing. Finally, $350 per month for health insurance. That equals $2,000 per month and $24,000 per year. She would have $1,000 left over.

In today's tithe, she would owe $2,500, which makes it very hard to feed, clothe and shelter her family.

In Talmage's tithe, she would owe $100, which would allow her to do her duty as a mother and take care of her family.

Big difference.

Overall, Talmadge doesn't have intellectual integrity and his writing doesn't really come off to me as "Mormon" or "LDS". He was more of a corporate schill just grinding the mill for what leadership wanted all along his way.

Of course, back in his day, most LDS folks were rather communal/communist Christian cooperative believers whose emphasis on everything was that they (the members) should take care of one another. That was a sort of generous culture, usually, though in the history of "United Orders" those outfits were economically repressive with ideas like everybody should wear the same coarse coveralls, no frills, and such.

So, imo, the idea of paying "tithes" to the corporate Church, needed some soft talk in that era. And of course the demand for 10% on gross wages has had a hard time cutting it's own way with folks whose brothers run businesses and deduct their costs while digging deep on every allowed IRS business deduction, including travel and food expenses for "business purposes".

Today, I consider the bishops' outlays to help with rent for very marginal unmotivated members who don't work much or make an effort to solve their problems as pretty outlandish. Lots of abuse on that side of it all.

In case you don't get my drift, generally, "tithing" in the OT times was for landowners with crops and valuable animals and actually didn't apply to mere "servants" or "laborers", and it was meant to support the clergy, per the instructions of the landless and jobless Levites.

Joseph's Smith's scathing rebuke against "Bishop" Edward Partridge in the D&C meant that in Josephs' mind, the idyllic agrarian utopia of the United Order was not in any way meant to accumulate all the real assets of the world into the hands of the Church, in legal ownership terms.

I think it might be a good thing for the Church Leaders to bear that in mind when mulling over their land holdings and businesses.

But in personal terms, I long ago determined that the criteria applied by Abraham, in giving a tithe of the spoils of war to the Patriarch/Priest of the age, "Melchizedek", the king of Salem (Jerusalem) was really just the old world patronage and nothing to do with "God". The stuff was given as a political bribe and to prevent retribution, of course. And the tithes in the Law of Moses were necessary because the Levites were given no land from the conquest, but were supposed to care for the rites/sacrifices/teaching of the people. It was more like paying your kids' teachers with produce.... There was no such thing as a corporate "Church".

But, in classic mammoth dysfunctional incongruity and bizarre cognitive dissonance, beyond all dispute, I have been blessed while paying tithes, and my mother who survived miraculously living that way, was better off than my father who died leaving millions to greedy lawyers who managed to make off into the sunset with all the loot after years of flattering the old man, while he himself never got the plaque on the wall of the new Science building at the college he kept above water through the Depression, by taking chickens and pigs and tomatoes for a salary.

nah, Green, you and the other critics in here would all do better just leaving the argument in the ditch and doing whatever you do to for the Church in God's hands. No way to figure how or what blessings you miss if you don't just put God first. Lots of little protestant/mainstream churches with struggling ministers living on a pittance who would benefit from your support, and who would serve the folks sincerely, if you just don't want to fund the Corporate Church.

I don't get to balance the books at Church headquarters, but I know the money in their hands is invested pretty good, and all the assets on the business side of the operation do essentially compose a reserve and a stabilizing economic program that does benefit the members. Nobody on the staff is overpaid. None of those assets are converted to personal wealth on the sly,

And God does bless you if your heart is right in helping the good work go along.
 
well this thread has certainly meandered

well, certainly there are a lot of members with ideas that don't "fit in", financially or politically or personally.

Individuals who take it on themselves to use the testimony meeting on the 1st Sunday as a sort of grass roots lobby for improved doctrine or management or policy don't deserve personal sympathy because they are in fact not doing it for personal acceptance but to force others to comply with their ideas.

I question if the girl did it without some encouragement from parents or teachers who are in fact pushing their own agenda for change.

Besides, with religion generally and with the Biblical instruction to Adam and Eve, as a heterosexual pair with distinct characteristics to marry and be "one" in the eyes of God, to multiply and replenish the Earth, in particular, the idea of the religion is to set forth higher ideals than mere personal pleasure/needs. The idea of religion generally is not about acceptance of people as they are, but a pointing to some specific higher ideals or duties.

Of course, the State today is the official religion, and of course we all have duties to comply with the directives of the State. Huge issues like climate, environment, or over-population just can't allow for personal or individual idiosyncrasies like wanting to have more children than management figures we should have.
 
The LDS doctrine on tithing is, IMHO, a form of spiritual blackmail. It plays on feelings of guilt, false promises of reward, both heavenly and temporal, and threats of punishment extract money from people many who can't afford it. While Colton's experience worked out, he also had a social/familial network that would support him financially and otherwise if need be. Many don't have this and paying tithing literally becomes matter of food, rent, basic leisure, basic quality of life vs paying tithing. But even for them, thy are spiritually blackmailed into paying the full 10%. Meanwhile the wealthy pay via stock or other donations. My financially struggling brother has paid tens of thousands in tithing over the years but has no money set aside for retirement. Anyone here think paying all that tithing will compensate him for having nothing to live on in his old age?

yeah man. Like those ignoramuses who work years on their jobs paying the guvmint taxes, medicare, SS and such who have worn out their knees standing on the production lines at some factory, and when they want a joint replacement the Obamacare panels tell'im "No, you're overage and useless and crap besides".

What I love is socialists pointing out the sheer fraudulent nature of collective social systems of any kind.

In an ideal world, an LDS ward will have volunteers helping old folks serving meals in their homes when they can no longer prepare them for themselves, and friends and neighbors coming in to keep up the yard and clean the house, and such.

Typically the result of being a full honest "gross not net" tither in LDS society is living a life of not wasting money or living dangerously along the way, and following good health practices like the Word of Wisdom and not doing "recreational" drugs like pot, or alcohol, which impair their brains. No tar in their lungs making breathing difficult, less cancer. Lots of little things like that. The mortgage gets paid off, and there is no recreational cruiser in the driveway that needs to be driven to the Sand Dunes or the mountains on weekends. Simple life, more joy. More friends.

I have a friend (and relative) who will die pretty soon, along with his wife. They have both been unable to get about for a while, and the ward has, with I'm pleased to observe, a lot of actual caring, been having folks called to attend to some of the needs of the day. I am pretty clearly seeing that this is actually better than being in a nursing home, and their friends in their ward are what I would hope human beings could be, really, all the best of what we could be.

The difference between government do-gooder State care is that if you don't pay the taxes to support the indifferent and uncaring administrators and service workers , you will go to jail. With a church, you can help if you care to but no one goes to jail for not helping. And the people who show up to help only do so because they do care.
 
The thing about tithing is that it should be between the individual and the Lord. All they ask you in any way in the Church is if you pay a full tithe, no one holds you to what that means strictly. They do not audit your books and demand to see your pay stubs and hold you accountable if you won $50 in a school raffle and didn't pay the 5 bucks. In the end, it is up to each member if they want to say "yes" during the temple recommend interview when asked if they pay a full tithe, and therefore up to that member what that tithe is. I have had a few bishops that questioned deeper than that, but for the most part they just ask "are you a full tithe payer" and when you answer "yes" they leave it at that. IMO that is a matter between you and God and in the end, if you believe in God, or really I guess if it turns out he does exist, the final "tithing settlement" will be between you and him.
 
The thing about tithing is that it should be between the individual and the Lord. All they ask you in any way in the Church is if you pay a full tithe, no one holds you to what that means strictly. They do not audit your books and demand to see your pay stubs and hold you accountable if you won $50 in a school raffle and didn't pay the 5 bucks. In the end, it is up to each member if they want to say "yes" during the temple recommend interview when asked if they pay a full tithe, and therefore up to that member what that tithe is. I have had a few bishops that questioned deeper than that, but for the most part they just ask "are you a full tithe payer" and when you answer "yes" they leave it at that. IMO that is a matter between you and God and in the end, if you believe in God, or really I guess if it turns out he does exist, the final "tithing settlement" will be between you and him.

When my wife and I were young and newlywed, we took a short hiatus from church activity. At some point we decided we wanted to get back on track, so we scheduled an appointment with our bishop to review what we would need to do to get our temple recommends renewed (they had expired). We had no intent of asking for renewal at that point, just some direction for getting the ball rolling. We showed up at the appointment and the bishop said he wanted to talk to my wife without me for a moment. Odd, but whatever. After about 10 minutes he opened the door to his office and invited me in. My wife was sitting there in tears. He proceeded to tell me that we wouldn't be talking about temple recommends at this time because we had not payed a full tithe. He didn't ask us, he told us. Why he felt like he had to lay into my wife without me, I've never figured out. We left the church building completely devoid of any confidence in that bishop, and moved out of the ward shortly after.

Yes, it's one guy, and he does not represent the church as a whole, but he kicked off my slow drift away from the church. There are many reasons for my current state of apathy for the church, but I view that experience as the kick-off party for it all. Ive never really gotten over it.


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When my wife and I were young and newlywed, we took a short hiatus from church activity. At some point we decided we wanted to get back on track, so we scheduled an appointment with our bishop to review what we would need to do to get our temple recommends renewed (they had expired). We had no intent of asking for renewal at that point, just some direction for getting the ball rolling. We showed up at the appointment and the bishop said he wanted to talk to my wife without me for a moment. Odd, but whatever. After about 10 minutes he opened the door to his office and invited me in. My wife was sitting there in tears. He proceeded to tell me that we wouldn't be talking about temple recommends at this time because we had not payed a full tithe. He didn't ask us, he told us. Why he felt like he had to lay into my wife without me, I've never figured out. We left the church building completely devoid of any confidence in that bishop, and moved out of the ward shortly after.

Yes, it's one guy, and he does not represent the church as a whole, but he kicked off my slow drift away from the church. There are many reasons for my current state of apathy for the church, but I view that experience as the kick-off party for it all. Ive never really gotten over it.


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I have had a few run-ins with bishops myself (stake presidents too). That is one of the toughest jobs in the church but also one that can have the biggest impact on members and non-members alike. I do not know always what they are told to do, and I often do not agree with the selection process, but I can tell you that many times they really over-step their bounds. From hounding kids about sexual experiences to demanding financial accounting to get bishop's storehouse to things like you mention here. These kinds of things drive people away in droves. The members can say "it is not about the individual, it is about the church" or "we believe the church is true, but the members aren't perfect" all they want, but in the end each member in a leadership position is the face of the church to countless people, and it should be a concern of the church how those leaders represent their interests. My bro-in-law is a bishop and one of the worst I could imagine having. He started calling in every person getting anything from bishop's storehouse (read: people down on their luck who need food and other assistance) and grilling them about their finances. He required them to turn off their cable or internet, to get rid of an extra car, or other asinine things like that, or he would cut off their bishop's storehouse help. Of course people can't/won't do that. It is ridiculous. So he cut a bunch of people off. He told us his stake president asked all bishops to do this because they needed to preserve their budgets for important uses (who knows what that means, makes no sense to me). He talks about people in a degrading way if they are "poor" and stuff. It is disgusting.

But see there is the danger. It is easy to say "well that is one guy and he is doing a bad job of it, doesn't mean the church isn't true", and sure that might be right in theory, but it is a HUGE PR issue for the church to have people like that in leadership positions. Who knows how many people a bishop like that will directly alienate, but really it is the countless others that that person will tell, and then those people will tell, and so on, that is the true damage to the church.

Even if a bishop isn't that blatant, it is still ridiculous to brush off bad behavior by leadership and pretend it has no impact on the church. It does. And it needs to be addressed.
 
I have had a few run-ins with bishops myself (stake presidents too). That is one of the toughest jobs in the church but also one that can have the biggest impact on members and non-members alike. I do not know always what they are told to do, and I often do not agree with the selection process, but I can tell you that many times they really over-step their bounds. From hounding kids about sexual experiences to demanding financial accounting to get bishop's storehouse to things like you mention here. These kinds of things drive people away in droves. The members can say "it is not about the individual, it is about the church" or "we believe the church is true, but the members aren't perfect" all they want, but in the end each member in a leadership position is the face of the church to countless people, and it should be a concern of the church how those leaders represent their interests. My bro-in-law is a bishop and one of the worst I could imagine having. He started calling in every person getting anything from bishop's storehouse (read: people down on their luck who need food and other assistance) and grilling them about their finances. He required them to turn off their cable or internet, to get rid of an extra car, or other asinine things like that, or he would cut off their bishop's storehouse help. Of course people can't/won't do that. It is ridiculous. So he cut a bunch of people off. He told us his stake president asked all bishops to do this because they needed to preserve their budgets for important uses (who knows what that means, makes no sense to me). He talks about people in a degrading way if they are "poor" and stuff. It is disgusting.

But see there is the danger. It is easy to say "well that is one guy and he is doing a bad job of it, doesn't mean the church isn't true", and sure that might be right in theory, but it is a HUGE PR issue for the church to have people like that in leadership positions. Who knows how many people a bishop like that will directly alienate, but really it is the countless others that that person will tell, and then those people will tell, and so on, that is the true damage to the church.

Even if a bishop isn't that blatant, it is still ridiculous to brush off bad behavior by leadership and pretend it has no impact on the church. It does. And it needs to be addressed.


There are a lot of specific issues, mostly of fairly minor importance, that I take on with the Church organization and policies and officials.

One is actions like this particular Bishop, who I think had no right to discuss anything with privately out of earshot with her husband. If it were sought specifically on those terms by his wife, that would be entirely different, but she was not asking for anything like that. This is simply unholy meddling and seeking to disrupt a marriage relation.

Asking specifically about some extended financial information is also out of bounds.

A Bishop when looking at a matter of inactive members wanting to return to activity should "start running the clock" at the time of that presentation of formerly inactive members. All in all, it would be quite OK to just recommend they take a year of living forward from that time towards taking calls and otherwise resuming "temple recommend worthiness". It's "like, man, OK whatever you want, I'll just see if you still feel the same way a year from now, meanwhile lets just start living by the rules...."
 
I have had a few run-ins with bishops myself (stake presidents too). That is one of the toughest jobs in the church but also one that can have the biggest impact on members and non-members alike. I do not know always what they are told to do, and I often do not agree with the selection process, but I can tell you that many times they really over-step their bounds. From hounding kids about sexual experiences to demanding financial accounting to get bishop's storehouse to things like you mention here. These kinds of things drive people away in droves. The members can say "it is not about the individual, it is about the church" or "we believe the church is true, but the members aren't perfect" all they want, but in the end each member in a leadership position is the face of the church to countless people, and it should be a concern of the church how those leaders represent their interests. My bro-in-law is a bishop and one of the worst I could imagine having. He started calling in every person getting anything from bishop's storehouse (read: people down on their luck who need food and other assistance) and grilling them about their finances. He required them to turn off their cable or internet, to get rid of an extra car, or other asinine things like that, or he would cut off their bishop's storehouse help. Of course people can't/won't do that. It is ridiculous. So he cut a bunch of people off. He told us his stake president asked all bishops to do this because they needed to preserve their budgets for important uses (who knows what that means, makes no sense to me). He talks about people in a degrading way if they are "poor" and stuff. It is disgusting.

But see there is the danger. It is easy to say "well that is one guy and he is doing a bad job of it, doesn't mean the church isn't true", and sure that might be right in theory, but it is a HUGE PR issue for the church to have people like that in leadership positions. Who knows how many people a bishop like that will directly alienate, but really it is the countless others that that person will tell, and then those people will tell, and so on, that is the true damage to the church.

Even if a bishop isn't that blatant, it is still ridiculous to brush off bad behavior by leadership and pretend it has no impact on the church. It does. And it needs to be addressed.

100% agree with you. In presenting my concerns to church leaders or other members, I've heard "The Gospel is perfect, but the members are not" far too many times. I accepted it for a while, when I really wanted to be able to reconcile my concerns, but now it just sounds like a cop-out to me.


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And another thing... people trying to win me back to the fold love to go to the Uchtdorf talk about "doubting your doubts".

Does this even make sense? Didn't a young Joseph Smith have doubts about the churches of his day? What if Joseph Smith had doubted his doubts? What I'm really getting is "just automatically doubt anything contrary to what the church tells you."

I don't consider this a healthy approach.


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And another thing... people trying to win me back to the fold love to go to the Uchtdorf talk about "doubting your doubts".

Does this even make sense? Didn't a young Joseph Smith have doubts about the churches of his day? What if Joseph Smith had doubted his doubts? What I'm really getting is "just automatically doubt anything contrary to what the church tells you."

I don't consider this a healthy approach.


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I've asked people this question before and all I get is a blank stare. Everything about the beginning of the church (at least as far as the story is told) is about Joseph Smith asking questions. The Doctrine and Covenants is basically Joseph's questions and answers. Yet now asking questions feels like it is discouraged except within a very small parameter. The "doubt your doubts" phrase sounds as cult-like as it possibly can. Just obey and don't think often seems to be the message (yes, I know there are exceptions as some local leaders aren't afraid of questions). It's not a philosophy that will work for many people.

My brother-in-law was recently a bishop, and I asked him once how he handles people who are questioning things like church history and more recent policies. He explained that, at least for the youth, he held a session with them monthly where they could anonymously submit questions and then they would talk about them. If all bishops were like my brother-in-law, there would be fewer people leaving. He was definitely one of the good ones.
 
I've asked people this question before and all I get is a blank stare. Everything about the beginning of the church (at least as far as the story is told) is about Joseph Smith asking questions. The Doctrine and Covenants is basically Joseph's questions and answers. Yet now asking questions feels like it is discouraged except within a very small parameter. The "doubt your doubts" phrase sounds as cult-like as it possibly can. Just obey and don't think often seems to be the message (yes, I know there are exceptions as some local leaders aren't afraid of questions). It's not a philosophy that will work for many people.

People often ignore the paragraph in Uchtdorf's talk just BEFORE the "doubt your doubts" line. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

He said, "It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions." So he's certainly not saying that people should never have questions.

My brother-in-law was recently a bishop, and I asked him once how he handles people who are questioning things like church history and more recent policies. He explained that, at least for the youth, he held a session with them monthly where they could anonymously submit questions and then they would talk about them. If all bishops were like my brother-in-law, there would be fewer people leaving. He was definitely one of the good ones.

Sounds like a great idea.
 
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