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Nothing wrong with GMO. Stop spreading misinformation. You've already done enough damage with your anti-vaxx talk.
No, it's Monsanto spreading misinformation. It is a very controversial subject. I don't pretend to know everything about it, but there are two sides in vehement opposition to each other. Being on the side of one of the most heinous companies in history, Monsanto, is not very comforting. You should realize that in Europe every nation has GMO labels because of the use of glyphosate and dicamba in the pesticides used to cultivate GMOs, which are believed to be carcinogens. There's much more to it, though, including top soil depletion -- though Monsanto claims otherwise. And my anti-vaxx talk has substance. I'm not against all vaccines. I sent you a huge document with lots of studies indicating problems with vaccines, but you never looked at it. It's the increase in the number of vaccines and the problems with the flu vaccines, and studies that show the correlation of vaccination with outbreaks of diseases like measles, and the question of vaccinating infants too early with certain vaccines, which some claim could cause neurological issues like autism. Remember, the timing is important in regards to this. I'm not sure about how much brain development is needed to be safe, but I do know that is the issue that has been mentioned.
 
Here we go again
 
No, it's Monsanto spreading misinformation. It is a very controversial subject. I don't pretend to know everything about it, but there are two sides in vehement opposition to each other. Being on the side of one of the most heinous companies in history, Monsanto, is not very comforting. You should realize that in Europe every nation has GMO labels because of the use of glyphosate and dicamba in the pesticides used to cultivate GMOs, which are believed to be carcinogens. There's much more to it, though, including top soil depletion -- though Monsanto claims otherwise. And my anti-vaxx talk has substance. I'm not against all vaccines. I sent you a huge document with lots of studies indicating problems with vaccines, but you never looked at it. It's the increase in the number of vaccines and the problems with the flu vaccines, and studies that show the correlation of vaccination with outbreaks of diseases like measles, and the question of vaccinating infants too early with certain vaccines, which some claim could cause neurological issues like autism. Remember, the timing is important in regards to this. I'm not sure about how much brain development is needed to be safe, but I do know that is the issue that has been mentioned.

Vaccines do not cause autism. They have no correlation to autism.

I just, Jesus. Take the wheel
 
Monsanto engaging in business practices that are ethically questionable (at best) has nothing to do with the value and safety of GMO products. Those are two different issues.
 
I was just listening to something on the radio that was interesting. Back in 1963, the Communist goals were read into the Congressional record. It's disturbing to see how many of these have come to pass in America.

https://www.beliefnet.com/columnist...-read-into-the-congressional-record-1963.html

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.”
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture–education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use [“]united force[“] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court
 
I was just listening to something on the radio that was interesting. Back in 1963, the Communist goals were read into the Congressional record. It's disturbing to see how many of these have come to pass in America.

https://www.beliefnet.com/columnist...-read-into-the-congressional-record-1963.html

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev’s promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers’ associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.”
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a “religious crutch.”
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the “common man.”
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the “big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture–education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use [“]united force[“] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court

To be clear, these 45 goals ARE NOT goals any communist, communist organization or communist nation laid out. These are 45 imaginary goals that W. Cleon Skousen wrote in his book "The Naked Communist: Exposing Communism and Restoring Freedom."

So let's just be clear what this list is.
 
Well, I'll say this. I could have just let it go. But, I went and said "oh no, not Moore", and basically just offered a different point of view regarding the good doctor. But, I could have let it go, because we are not going to, and never were going to, solve the climate change debate in this thread.

You may not realize it, but I am not at all unsympathetic to what you were hoping to do with this thread. Just read what I said in comment #50. I recognize liberals and conservatives alike are fellow Americans, and this is a war we seem to be engaged in at this moment in our history. It actually has very deep roots, but that too is really beyond the scope of this thread.

I may be a sap, but I thought you had the right to hope it would be a thread by, and for, conservatives. Unfortunetly, that did not happen, it blew up in a hurry, and despite saying I would respect your wishes for your thread, you had to go promote the Heartland Institute. Lol. But it was your right, it was indeed. So, I went against my better nature, and did not let it go as just that one initial comment.

Further, I believe dissent and skepticism are not, nor should they ever be, regarded as interlopers within science. Dissent and skepticism are good for science. In comment #305, I specifically spelled out two periods in the history of science, during which the consensus was proven to be all wet. One instance from American archaeology and prehistory, and one instance from planatery geology.

I'm sure we could find other instances in the history of science, which, as Thomas Kuhn sagely observed, too often advances "one funeral at a time". Time and again within scientific disciplines, careers are sacrificed on the altar of consensus. And pioneers are often unrecognized in their own lifetimes, discarded by the twin weapons of conformity and received wisdom, the weapons wielded by consensus and dominant paradigms.

So, while I believe the consensus on human caused global warming is correct, and Dr. Moore is just another outlier, I would never say he must be silenced.

I just countered your portrait of Moore with a different slant. But I could have just let it go, and perhaps I should have. What we have in common as Americans has to be more important then our differences. Someday, I hope.
I'm glad you did not let it go. I want to hear the opinion of logical people who see things differently than I do. Regarding the stuff you pointed out by Dr. Moore I was particularly concerned that he purports himself to be a founder of Greenpeace and he clearly was not. That tells me that he is willing to play loose with the facts. But regarding the video that was posted of Dr. Moore, he said many things that I find very logical, reasonable and thought provoking. And that I would put his statements in that category even if he had no credentials at all. For instance he makes the very valid point that science does not care about consensus. A certain segment of the global warming catastrophe camp seem intent on silencing voices from the other side. You do not do that and I appreciate it.
 
I'm glad you did not let it go. I want to hear the opinion of logical people who see things differently than I do. Regarding the stuff you pointed out by Dr. Moore I was particularly concerned that he purports himself to be a founder of Greenpeace and he clearly was not. That tells me that he is willing to play loose with the facts. But regarding the video that was posted of Dr. Moore, he said many things that I find very logical, reasonable and thought provoking. And that I would put his statements in that category even if he had no credentials at all. For instance he makes the very valid point that science does not care about consensus. A certain segment of the global warming catastrophe camp seem intent on silencing voices from the other side. You do not do that and I appreciate it.

I am not sure why I am bothering with this but Dr. Moore was clearly one of the founding/original members of Greenpeace. He may not be one of the seven "founders" that are mentioned on their website but he was on what was called the founding voyage that really started Greenpeace as an organization.

He was actually scrubbed from the site as being an original founder:
http://greenspiritstrategies.com/who-are-the-founders-of-greenpeace/
https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2019/03/18/google-scrubs-greenpeace-co-founder-protect-aoc/

https://www.greenpeace.org/archive-international/en/about/history/amchitka-hunter/
https://www.greenpeace.org/archive-international/en/about/history/founders/

http://ecosense.me/about/

Dr. Patrick Moore has been a leader in the international environmental field for over 30 years. He is a founding member of Greenpeace and served for nine years as President of Greenpeace Canada and seven years as a Director of Greenpeace International. As the leader of many campaigns Dr. Moore was a driving force shaping policy and direction while Greenpeace became the world's largest environmental activist organization.
 
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I am not sure why I am bothering with this but Dr. Moore was clearly one of the founding/original members of Greenpeace. He may not be one of the seven "founders" that are mentioned on their website but he was on what was called the founding voyage that really started Greenpeace as an organization.

He was actually scrubbed from the site as being an original founder:
http://greenspiritstrategies.com/who-are-the-founders-of-greenpeace/

https://www.greenpeace.org/archive-international/en/about/history/amchitka-hunter/
https://www.greenpeace.org/archive-international/en/about/history/founders/

http://ecosense.me/about/

Dr. Patrick Moore has been a leader in the international environmental field for over 30 years. He is a founding member of Greenpeace and served for nine years as President of Greenpeace Canada and seven years as a Director of Greenpeace International. As the leader of many campaigns Dr. Moore was a driving force shaping policy and direction while Greenpeace became the world's largest environmental activist organization.
Okay, it's a dispute in terminology. One of the links that @Red provided earlier included a link to Greenpeace disputing that title for Moore. It even included a PDF of Moore's original application letter which is what I felt made it clear that he was not a Co-founder. And I watched a video where he called himself a "Co-founder of Greenpeace." I can imagine why he said that because I'm sure it did feel like he was on the cusp of something when he took that first trip with them, but I don't think his claim is perfectly accurate. I also saw a video where he said it was perfectly safe to drink a particular pesticide. When the interviewer offered him some to drink he got very pissed off and ended the interview. Episodes like this hurt his credibility because his appeal (to me) in the first video that was posted was that he appeared to be an impartial arbiter of scientific facts. He either shouldn't have made the claim that the substance was safe to drink, or he should have drank it (which would have blown my mind). But we are all human and it does not surprise me that any of us make periodic mistakes.
 
Monsanto engaging in business practices that are ethically questionable (at best) has nothing to do with the value and safety of GMO products. Those are two different issues.
This. I'm gonna Godwin this bitch.

Hitler was a terrible evil individual, but he did a lot of good. He started the freeway build out before any other developed country, he pulled his country out of a terrible depression, he started and expanded social programs. He was also an unholy monster spewed from the depths of hell, but it doesn't mean that automatically everything he's tied to is evil.
 
Okay, it's a dispute in terminology. One of the links that @Red provided earlier included a link to Greenpeace disputing that title for Moore. It even included a PDF of Moore's original application letter which is what I felt made it clear that he was not a Co-founder. And I watched a video where he called himself a "Co-founder of Greenpeace." I can imagine why he said that because I'm sure it did feel like he was on the cusp of something when he took that first trip with them, but I don't think his claim is perfectly accurate. I also saw a video where he said it was perfectly safe to drink a particular pesticide. When the interviewer offered him some to drink he got very pissed off and ended the interview. Episodes like this hurt his credibility because his appeal (to me) in the first video that was posted was that he appeared to be an impartial arbiter of scientific facts. He either shouldn't have made the claim that the substance was safe to drink, or he should have drank it (which would have blown my mind). But we are all human and it does not surprise me that any of us make periodic mistakes.

I understand what you are saying. I don't get the drinking the pesticide crap. That's just dumb. I posted another link that shows he was scrubbed from their website as a founder. They have re-written their history.

https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2019/03/18/google-scrubs-greenpeace-co-founder-protect-aoc/
 
Here we go again
Yes, and read this, it should give us pause:

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...0403Z1_B_UCM&et_cid=DM278220&et_rid=583090884
Vaccines do not cause autism. They have no correlation to autism.

I just, Jesus. Take the wheel
I believe jury is still out on this. Apparently, the person who alleged this has been discredited but there are still unanswered questions. Just because mainstream propaganda is trying to crush this narrative doesn't mean there is no substance to it. The uptick in autism is not merely due to increased diagnosis but likely has an environmental component, as do the increases in other neurological conditions.
 
Yes, and read this, it should give us pause:

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...0403Z1_B_UCM&et_cid=DM278220&et_rid=583090884

I believe jury is still out on this. Apparently, the person who alleged this has been discredited but there are still unanswered questions. Just because mainstream propaganda is trying to crush this narrative doesn't mean there is no substance to it. The uptick in autism is not merely due to increased diagnosis but likely has an environmental component, as do the increases in other neurological conditions.
Many many actual studies have shown no correlation between vaccines and autism. A few dubious outliers do not disprove or throw any doubt on that conclusion.
 
Monsanto engaging in business practices that are ethically questionable (at best) has nothing to do with the value and safety of GMO products. Those are two different issues.
They have a huge vested interest in GMOs because they created them as well as the pesticides used with them. They are synonymous with GMOs. They just lost another multi-million dollar law suit that found them liable for glyphosate's role in causing someone's cancer.
 
This. I'm gonna Godwin this bitch.

Hitler was a terrible evil individual, but he did a lot of good. He started the freeway build out before any other developed country, he pulled his country out of a terrible depression, he started and expanded social programs. He was also an unholy monster spewed from the depths of hell, but it doesn't mean that automatically everything he's tied to is evil.

Are you talking about Monsanto? I looked into it a bit last time @justthetip (or whatever the hell handlers goes by now) was in here clubbing the usual suspects and left with the impression it was all a bunch of b.s. pushed by the anti-GMO Europeans. Entrapment by their contract kept getting brought up so I read it for myself. It was a whopping four pages long or something and nothing unusual at all. Just a bunch of hype pushed for unsuspecting dolts to lap up, wrapped in the same old corporate Murica evil wrapping paper. Even every farmer I found through google was saying it's all nonsense.

Maybe I'm missing something but the Monsanto narrative I went in with was not what I walked out with.
 
They have a huge vested interest in GMOs because they created them as well as the pesticides used with them. They are synonymous with GMOs. They just lost another multi-million dollar law suit that found them liable for glyphosate's role in causing someone's cancer.

Cancer is Gods way of punishing farmers for forcing communism onto all of us with their trillions in subsidies. Please stop condemning the Lord.
 
Are you talking about Monsanto? I looked into it a bit last time @justthetip (or whatever the hell handlers goes by now) was in here clubbing the usual suspects and left with the impression it was all a bunch of b.s. pushed by the anti-GMO Europeans. Entrapment by their contract kept getting brought up so I read it for myself. It was a whopping four pages long or something and nothing unusual at all. Just a bunch of hype pushed for unsuspecting dolts to lap up, wrapped in the same old corporate Murica evil wrapping paper. Even every farmer I found through google was saying it's all nonsense.

Maybe I'm missing something but the Monsanto narrative I went in with was not what I walked out with.
Yeah I believe it's an underserved rep, however I was going at the concept that company = evil therefore every output of said company = evil. I'm not a fan of absolutes. Absolutes are never right!

Plus I figured we were far enough in for some Godwin action up in here.
 
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