Are you going to root for Hayward?

[Cappy_Smurf]

We are fortunate you are not the GM if you believe he was not worth the contract he got

You missed the point entirely. Hayward was coming off a very mediocre season and by no means was an automatic max player. That was a huge gamble that just happened to pay off. Could have easily gone the other way, and yet the self-proclaimed experts like to use hindsight as if DL made some dumb decision not to automatically max him.

If this is how you think teams should operate, Hood should be getting a max this year, just in case he blows up.

 

[8]

You missed the point entirely. Hayward was coming off a very mediocre season and by no means was an automatic max player. That was a huge gamble that just happened to pay off. Could have easily gone the other way, and yet the self-proclaimed experts like to use hindsight as if DL made some dumb decision not to automatically max him.

If this is how you think teams should operate, Hood should be getting a max this year, just in case he blows up.

No, I just saw it differently than you. Hayward was worth it at the time. He was improving every year, and even his 'mediocre' year he had made noticeable improvements in his game and skill set to anyone watching, just went down in efficiency and appeared to 'regress' to the unelightened as his role become much bigger and the team around him became ****tier. Too many people misusing, overemphasizing, and misinterpreting certain statistics and whatnot imo.

I never saw it as 'huge gamble.' He was a hella durable player who consistently improved his game was a plus on both sides of the ball, competed every play, and played high IQ, unselfish basketball. He was just worth it to me.

Hood is not at the same level as Hayward was at the time so no, it's not the same thing, and I would not be in favor of giving him a max contract extension at this point in time. He has not shown near what Hayward did.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

No, I just saw it differently than you. Hayward was worth it at the time. He was improving every year, and even his 'mediocre' year he had made noticeable improvements in his game and skill set to anyone watching, just went down in efficiency and appeared to 'regress' to the unelightened as his role become much bigger and the team around him became ****tier. Too many people misusing, overemphasizing, and misinterpreting certain statistics and whatnot imo.

I never saw it as 'huge gamble.' He was a hella durable player who consistently improved his game was a plus on both sides of the ball, competed every play, and played high IQ, unselfish basketball. He was just worth it to me.

Hood is not at the same level as Hayward was at the time so no, it's not the same thing, and I would not be in favor of giving him a max contract extension at this point in time. He has not shown near what Hayward did.

Clearly we remember and see this differently. I remember him improving a bit, but in most eyes not enough to clearly deserve a max contract and people even brought up the AK47 "albatross" contract that they did not want repeated on someone they were not confident would deserve it. People wondered if he played as well as he ever would because it was a contract year. There was definite uncertainty. I was 50/50 on us offering him something and having him look, but I doubt I would have offered him a max contract in DL's shoes. Up to that point, what had Hayward done to actually deserve the max? I don't buy Cy's idea that you pay on potential, so if someone might someday be max worthy, you max them now. That's a recipe for disaster.

As to the Hayward Hood comparison, lets look back to Hayward prior to the RFA. I chose Hayward's contract year even though his 3rd year would be a more fair comparison for Hood.
Hayward 13-14 stats
41%fg 30%3pt 45%2pt 81%ft 5.1rpg 5.2apg 1.4spg 0.5bpg 16.2ppg I believe his first time being the #1 option, and it was a tough adjustment and he was not super efficient.

Hood last year (injured throughout)
41%fg 37%3pt 44%2pt 78%ft 3.4rpg 1.6apg 0.6spt 0.2bpg 12.7ppg His prior year was better, possibly because of injury.

Hood was not the main option, but we saw what he could do the prior year in spot duty as being the on court option. The prior year he averaged 14.5ppg. He's not that far off that he doesn't deserve a max contract, eh @Cy?

 

[8]

Clearly we remember and see this differently. I remember him improving a bit, but in most eyes not enough to clearly deserve a max contract and people even brought up the AK47 "albatross" contract that they did not want repeated on someone they were not confident would deserve it. People wondered if he played as well as he ever would because it was a contract year. There was definite uncertainty. I was 50/50 on us offering him something and having him look, but I doubt I would have offered him a max contract in DL's shoes. Up to that point, what had Hayward done to actually deserve the max? I don't buy Cy's idea that you pay on potential, so if someone might someday be max worthy, you max them now. That's a recipe for disaster.

As to the Hayward Hood comparison, lets look back to Hayward prior to the RFA. I chose Hayward's contract year even though his 3rd year would be a more fair comparison for Hood.
Hayward 13-14 stats
41%fg 30%3pt 45%2pt 81%ft 5.1rpg 5.2apg 1.4spg 0.5bpg 16.2ppg I believe his first time being the #1 option, and it was a tough adjustment and he was not super efficient.

Hood last year (injured throughout)
41%fg 37%3pt 44%2pt 78%ft 3.4rpg 1.6apg 0.6spt 0.2bpg 12.7ppg His prior year was better, possibly because of injury.

Hood was not the main option, but we saw what he could do the prior year in spot duty as being the on court option. The prior year he averaged 14.5ppg. He's not that far off that he doesn't deserve a max contract, eh @Cy?

I just much prefer to use my eyes and own judgements than look at a few select stats that you pick out, and to this point I don't deem Hood as being the same caliber Hayward was at the time, nor have I perceived him as working as hard on his game so far - although, this offseason seems different so far in that regard.

 

[8]

And even those stats you picked favor Hayward considerably... look at the difference in assists. FG% is dead even, even tho Hayward was playing on a much worse team

 

[Jazz Spazz]

And even those stats you picked favor Hayward considerably... look at the difference in assists. FG% is dead even, even tho Hayward was playing on a much worse team

Oh, I used my eyes. Hayward was relied on more and his efficiency dropped even if his scoring increased. That does not scream NBA Allstar or max contract. Clearly I disagree with your hindsight view on him. He was not clearly worth it even if he was slowly trending in the right direction.

Feel free to find old posts to backup your current position if you care enough. I certainly don't care enough to look it up.

 

[8]

Oh, I used my eyes. Hayward was relied on more and his efficiency dropped even if his scoring increased. That does not scream NBA Allstar or max contract. Clearly I disagree with your hindsight view on him. He was not clearly worth it even if he was slowly trending in the right direction.

Feel free to find old posts to backup your current position if you care enough. I certainly don't care enough to look it up.

I don't care enough either, nor do I need to because it matters none to me. I remember voiting that the Jazz should max him back when there was a poll concerning it. I always had a higher opinion on Hayward than most of this board tho so it's no surprise that I'd disagree with a lot of people.

Even his first playoff series where he was epically awful to most people because of a horrendous field goal percentage and poor scoring output I thought he performed admirably. He got to the line quite a few times and made life tough on the other end for the future HOF Manu Ginobli he was matched up against a lot. Even Manu was very complimentary towards him. Hayward was always a player who I was fond of because he I always liked the way he plays. He competes 100% of the time on both ends and is always looking to make the right play. As Doris Burke says after one of best career dunks, "You've gotta love the Hayward plays the game, his expression never changes no matter what's going on..." or smth like that... That always appealed to me, regardless of anything else.

And it's not surprising his efficiency dropped that year as he took on a much bigger role in an offense with significantly less talent. Not sure what you are trying to say by that. I wasn't saying that his efficiency improved or anything, I was trying to give reasons to support his efficiency dropping while maintaining my belief that he still had improved as a player as was his modus operandi to consistently do so imo.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I don't care enough either, nor do I need to because it matters none to me. I remember voiting that the Jazz should max him back when there was a poll concerning it. I always had a higher opinion on Hayward than most of this board tho so it's no surprise that I'd disagree with a lot of people.

Even his first playoff series where he was epically awful to most people because of a horrendous field goal percentage and poor scoring output I thought he performed admirably. He got to the line quite a few times and made life tough on the other end for the future HOF Manu Ginobli he was matched up against a lot. Even Manu was very complimentary towards him. Hayward was always a player who I was fond of because he I always liked the way he plays. He competes 100% of the time on both ends and is always looking to make the right play. As Doris Burke says after one of best career dunks, "You've gotta love the Hayward plays the game, his expression never changes no matter what's going on..." or smth like that... That always appealed to me, regardless of anything else.

And it's not surprising his efficiency dropped that year as he took on a much bigger role in an offense with significantly less talent. Not sure what you are trying to say by that. I wasn't saying that his efficiency improved or anything, I was trying to give reasons to support his efficiency dropping while maintaining my belief that he still had improved as a player as was his modus operandi to consistently do so imo.

My point is that it was definitely not clear that Hayward should be maxed at that point. It turned out in the end that it would have been a good decision but at the time it was not clear at all. Whether you thought so and were right doesn't matter. Nobody, Hayward himself, could have stated at that point 100% that he would be worth a max contract. This is why I don't blame DL at all for how he handled it. In hindsight maybe it would have turned out differently, but we will never know. It is still very possible Hayward would have left anyways for some other slight or reason. My point with the decreased efficiency, is to back up the thought that it was not clear what he would become. It was a coin flip. For all we knew that could have been his peak because often players when they hit that age and experience in the league they don't continue with the consistent improvements.

To blame DL for a 50/50 decision where he went the safe route is nitpicky imo, especially after we saw KOC get crushed for the AK47 max decision that hurt us for years.

 

[8]

My point is that it was definitely not clear that Hayward should be maxed at that point. It turned out in the end that it would have been a good decision but at the time it was not clear at all. Whether you thought so and were right doesn't matter. Nobody, Hayward himself, could have stated at that point 100% that he would be worth a max contract. This is why I don't blame DL at all for how he handled it. In hindsight maybe it would have turned out differently, but we will never know. It is still very possible Hayward would have left anyways for some other slight or reason. My point with the decreased efficiency, is to back up the thought that it was not clear what he would become. It was a coin flip. For all we knew that could have been his peak because often players when they hit that age and experience in the league they don't continue with the consistent improvements.

To blame DL for a 50/50 decision where he went the safe route is nitpicky imo, especially after we saw KOC get crushed for the AK47 max decision that hurt us for years.

And my point is that I believed differently at the time. It's not an objective thing, we just had a difference of opinion. Not sure why it's a big deal. No one is right, no one is wrong, we held/hold different opinions. Saying things are unequivocally, unilaterally and objectively one way on the matter is the only thing that is wrong.

 

[8]

And yes, even Lebron James could potentially not be worth a max contract because he could die tomorrow. No one knows. I will never argue that.

 

[Douchebag K]

, "You've gotta love the Hayward plays the game, his expression never changes no matter what's going on..." or smth like that... That always appealed to me, regardless of anything else.

.

true .. but .. i wonder how the Boston highly educated fans will take to that, particularly in some tough times when they're used to beat your chest type overtly passionate dudes.

 

[stormkoopacv03]

To hell with that Dapper dan freak! lol

 

[8]

Hayward didn't deserve a max contract when he was sent shopping.

This is the first thing you said. I have no issues with the way DL handled it - Hayward would be off to Boston regardless imo, but I disagree with you saying that he wasn't worth a max contract. Obviously, DL did too, and it's good that he did.

**** Hayward.

 

[RJF]

Nope. Probably won't boo him though. Maybe.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

This is the first thing you said. I have no issues with the way DL handled it - Hayward would be off to Boston regardless imo, but I disagree with you saying that he wasn't worth a max contract. Obviously, DL did too, and it's good that he did.

**** Hayward.

It's ok if we disagree. I disagree in part. If DL thought he was 100% worth it he wouldn't have sent him shopping. When he came back with a max contract we had to keep him and pay it because there was no way we were getting an equivalent player out of FA to replace him. I don't think he was worth it then, but I think later he proved he was in the long run. I'm not saying he was far off, but not really there.

It's cool if we agree to disagree. Yours is not a bad opinion and I hope mine isn't either.

In hindsight I really do agree with you and think he would have found a reason to bail even if DL came to him with a max contract back then without the RFA work.

 

[KqWIN]

You missed the point entirely. Hayward was coming off a very mediocre season and by no means was an automatic max player. That was a huge gamble that just happened to pay off. Could have easily gone the other way, and yet the self-proclaimed experts like to use hindsight as if DL made some dumb decision not to automatically max him.

If this is how you think teams should operate, Hood should be getting a max this year, just in case he blows up.

The max was a no brainer, he didn't even demand a max btw. It was cap related and not performance related. Everybody knew the cap was going up, it was almost impossible to give out a bad contract. It's not like Hayward bet on himself and earned himself a max. He played poorly and got paid because the cap was going up. Again, this is something everybody knew at the time extension talks were going on. You, me, Lindsey...the knowledge was all public. The only difference is that Lindsey certainly had a better understand of the incoming cap jump from an insider perspective, and that makes it look worse for him.

If he saw the jump coming (which he did), that's just being cheap. If he wasn't able to see the cap jump coming, that's incompetence.

 

[candrew]

Watch this video and then tell me you're going to root for him.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPZOrypnJfY

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Watch this video and then tell me you're going to root for him.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPZOrypnJfY

Goodbye Gordon, have a nice life!

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Root for Hayward?